LGBT stuff threat

LGBT has been an issue and a debate for centuries long. In those centuries lot of LGBT people have been executed so it is a pretty serious subject. That is why I think this is a serious and good subject to start a controversial threat about. Sadly I do not have a really clear opinion about LGBT, So I am very interested in your opinions.

Are you interested in the history of LGBT or just the current situation/LGBT general, because then maybe this isn't the right forum.

Probably both most opinions are also based on history.

What do you mean by in "those centuries" LGBT people were being executed? You don't have to look just to historical past centuries for examples, just look at whats happening in the muslim world today in the current century.

I agree this would be better situated in the politics thread.

My opinion is simple:

Let them marry and call themselves a different gender. It doesn't affect my life in any way and frankly it doesn't for anyone else past really petty reasons. Not letting them marry won't stop them from loving and not letting them be identified as a different gender doesn't change how they feel.

EmperorTigerstar wrote:My opinion is simple:

Let them marry and call themselves a different gender. It doesn't affect my life in any way and frankly it doesn't for anyone else past really petty reasons. Not letting them marry won't stop them from loving and not letting them be identified as a different gender doesn't change how they feel.

Except if you live in Canada it does affect you as you must call people by whatever their mentally unstable brain has decided to identify as. If a white man identifies as a black man then sure whatever but when we are forced to call him a black man that is too far.

Wait, so... is this a history or a politics thread?

My stance is LGBT, y'know, all cool with me. If a dude wants to bone a dude, ain't no business of mine. If you brain and body all mixed up and you wanna get your genitals switched, go for it, I'm 100% supportive. I've got a crapload of gay, lesbian, bi and trans friends, including both my ex-gfs (one bi one trans), and I would be one heck of a crappy friend if I wasn't cool with them, yeah?

But the line gotta be drawn somewhere, and for me that line is simply, don't claim to be transgender without actual psychological evidence (you'd be surprised, some people actually do this, and it really screws over actual trans peeps), and don't try and claim you're no gender both, three, electric type, Apache attack helicopter, Paul-Blart-Mall-Cop-2-gender etc. There's 2 genders, and 4 sexualities (hetero, homo, bi, a-), and that's it.


Okay with that opinion-y out of the way onto history.

I've heard that Richard I "The Lionheart" may have been gay, but the fact that he fathered children with several mistresses leads me to doubt that. However, there's a similar rumor for James I/VI of England/Scotland, claiming he had an affair with the Duke of Buckingham, which seems a lot more reasonable to me, as it's backed up by a secret chamber connecting the bedrooms of the two, and from a vague warning given by a priest to James suggesting possible homosexuality, of course, James did have a wife and children, but this could have merely been coincidental. Finally, US president James Buchanan has also been subject to speculation, given that he was the one and only president to have never been married, and I certainly think it's possible, but I don't know if there's enough evidence to back this claim up, would be interesting though, to think the first gay US president served over a century before the gay rights movement really kicked into gear.

Enough of speculation, onto confirmed LGBT historical persons. Harvey Milk. I don't know much about him, but he's an interesting person in US history, check him out. Alan Turing, cracked the Enigma code, but then got persecuted for being gay and ended up possibly committing suicide (though it may have been accidental?). Also, a number of well known serial killers were gay such as Jeffery Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy, as well as a handful of famous entertainers such as Elton John and good ol' Ellen DeGeneres.

Also, fun fact: I can't remember her name, but Iceland had the very first openly gay head of government.

Octagon History wrote: If a white man identifies as a black man then sure whatever but when we are forced to call him a black man that is too far.

I don't really understand why it's an issue to just call people whatever they want to be called? or even just refer to them in vague ways. You say here that it affects you to have to call people this, what way does it affect you to make you so vehemently against it?

I don't care about the issue of homosexuality. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is done and you can (and should) be able to marry who you want as long as it's consensual.

The new issue on the table, and I guess where my "red line" is, are in regards to transgender issues. This is largely due to the fact that there can't be a "trans" to "transgender" since "gender" is mostly how you're socialized.

DukeOfTea wrote:

Octagon History wrote: If a white man identifies as a black man then sure whatever but when we are forced to call him a black man that is too far.

I don't really understand why it's an issue to just call people whatever they want to be called? or even just refer to them in vague ways. You say here that it affects you to have to call people this, what way does it affect you to make you so vehemently against it?

Because that is in direct violation of Freedom of Speech look up bill C-16

Sexuality has nothing to do with gender, there can be men whom are gays or women but keeping their genders.

So yeah, let gays live and everything, let them marry, etc, they deserve the rights that every human have... but a men who thinks that he is a woman or vice versa? WTF? Seriously that thing is not normal.

Octagon History wrote:
Because that is in direct violation of Freedom of Speech look up bill C-16

I don't believe that you should be in any legal trouble for not saying what the other person likes to be called, I fully respect freedom of speech and think that it should be protected for both you and the person who wants to identify as something. Also it's just sort of a decent thing to do to not intentionally be rude to someone.

If Transgendered people claim that biological sex isn't connected to gender then why do they want to change their biological sex to match their gender?

Seems like something an illogical and/or person suffering from Gender Dysphoria, a mental illness, would do.

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:If Transgendered people claim that biological sex isn't connected to gender then why do they want to change their biological sex to match their gender?

Seems like something an illogical and/or person suffering from Gender Dysphoria, a mental illness, would do.

That's because they have dysphoria, that's literally how they're defined, and what the sex change surgery solves. However, you are correct that sex and gender are connected, think of it like a switch in the brain where "on/off" is replaced with "male/female" and one out of every 1000+ people, the switch is in the wrong position.

One thing I find interesting is how at times it has been tolerated and at others it's been repressed. Even in Muslim countries like the ottoman Empire, it was tolerated (and even encouraged) at times. For example, Mehmed II (Yes the one that conquered Constantinople), kept a harem of both boys and girls and preferred the company of boys. The Ottoman Empire was also the first country (in the modern era) to legalize homosexuality, in 1858 as part of the Tanzimat Reforms.

I belive that homosexuals have a right to love each other, however, i do not support gay marriage (at least in the catholic church). I also do not support transgenders, since you just cannot be a a woman if you are born as a man or the other way around.

@Crazy Boris That is sexist. Men and Women do not have different brains. You are literally using talking points from 1950s propaganda that said women have different and inferior brains compared to men.

Men and Women have the exact same brains. Any claim to the contrary is sexist and is supporting gender stereotypes.

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:@Crazy Boris That is sexist.  Men and Women do not have different brains. You are literally using talking points from 1950s propaganda that said women have different and inferior brains compared to men.

Men and Women have the exact same brains.  Any claim to the contrary is sexist and is supporting gender stereotypes.

Calling people sexist is not an argument. Studies have shown that women do think differently than men. Men tend to think mechanically, while Women think emotionally. This is because women have evolved to care for children, and men have evolved to support the women, neither are necessarily inferior.

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:@Crazy Boris That is sexist.  Men and Women do not have different brains. You are literally using talking points from 1950s propaganda that said women have different and inferior brains compared to men.

Men and Women have the exact same brains.  Any claim to the contrary is sexist and is supporting gender stereotypes.

But... there ARE differences between male and female brains, it's part of the sexual dimporhism that defines male and female, look it up, and I'm not saying that makes one superior to the other, where did you get that from? What I'm saying is that sometimes, the brain develops the wrong way, and someone who's physically male will end up with a female brain and vice versa, giving rise to body dysphoria, which explains transgender people

Octagon History wrote:

EmperorTigerstar wrote:My opinion is simple:

Let them marry and call themselves a different gender. It doesn't affect my life in any way and frankly it doesn't for anyone else past really petty reasons. Not letting them marry won't stop them from loving and not letting them be identified as a different gender doesn't change how they feel.

Except if you live in Canada it does affect you as you must call people by whatever their mentally unstable brain has decided to identify as. If a white man identifies as a black man then sure whatever but when we are forced to call him a black man that is too far.

In regards to transgenders, does it really bother you to simply call them the he/she they prefer? Does it somehow cause you harm to your physical being? Because otherwise it really doesn't matter.

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:If Transgendered people claim that biological sex isn't connected to gender then why do they want to change their biological sex to match their gender?

Seems like something an illogical and/or person suffering from Gender Dysphoria, a mental illness, would do.

Well, not all of them do. But the ones that do have the change do it for personal comfort. They feel more like what they identify with it. Think of it like a dress. Sure, dresses aren't connected to gender as both boys and girls can (and depending on the culture, DO) wear dresses. But clearly more girls wear dresses so to feel more like a girl they wear the dress.

Ironically enough, the fact that dresses aren't "connected" to gender is a pretty good argument against the notion of transgenderism, the idea of dysmorphia as a disorder, and the end for any and all special accommodations for people who claim to be "trans".

Dittatore_Signore_Massimo wrote:I belive that homosexuals have a right to love each other, however, i do not support gay marriage (at least in the catholic church). I also do not support transgenders, since you just cannot be a a woman if you are born as a man or the other way around.

Yeah, that makes total sense. If gay marriage goes against the church's dogma, then of course its ok if it isn't accepted there. The problem comes when a democratic state, which besides protecting the will of the majority should also ensure the rights and freedoms of the minorities, doesn't allow something as basic as marriage with religion as an argument.

And about trasgenders, biologically you are totally right, but whatever they decide to do, it's their right to be left alone and do their own thing and be respected.

CamiloVargas99 wrote:

Dittatore_Signore_Massimo wrote:I belive that homosexuals have a right to love each other, however, i do not support gay marriage (at least in the catholic church). I also do not support transgenders, since you just cannot be a a woman if you are born as a man or the other way around.

Yeah, that makes total sense. If gay marriage goes against the church's dogma, then of course its ok if it isn't accepted there. The problem comes when a democratic state, which besides protecting the will of the majority should also ensure the rights and freedoms of the minorities, doesn't allow something as basic as marriage with religion as an argument.

And about trasgenders, biologically you are totally right, but whatever they decide to do, it's their right to be left alone and do their own thing and be respected.

In first place, let me tell you that i totally respect your opinion, but the problem is that a lot of times, minorities are treated even better than a native like me in my country (argentina) and they often abuse their power and get people in jail for basically nothing.
Also, no, you cannot let transgender people go arround cutting their gennitals off, if i cut off my arm because i strongly belive it should not be a part of me, is that legal? no.