Stance on Israel/Palestine?

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Where should the borders between Israel and Palestine be drawn?

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Total Votes : 34

Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by AltHistNerd13 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:46 pm

This has been a controversial topic since Israel's inception. I knew a thread discussing the topic would come up eventually. Please, please, please, be civil when debating this issue.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Winston Churchill on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:16 am

Both sides have a legitimate claim to the land, but I can't think of any solution that would make them both happy. This is such a complex issue.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by DukeOfTea on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:25 am

Winston Churchill wrote:This is such a complex issue.
Yup, I definitely think that this is a situation where there is no right answer. No matter what is done, people will have a fair reason to be angry, and it will probably end with more bloodspill ):
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Cold War Communist on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:41 am

I don't believe in the two state solution. As it stands, I support Israel's claim to the entirety of the land under their control right now, including the Golan Heights, Sinai Peninsula, and Palestine.

The reasoning behind this decision is as follows: we made a mistake in creating Israel after WWI and following through with the idea after WWII. That said, it's been 80 years, and the mistakes of the past cannot be undone. By perpetuating the myth of a two-state solution, we are guaranteeing that Israel and Palestine will be in perpetual conflict, as well as their neighbors.

Therefore, the best solution would be to grant total control to the dominant power and allow them to gain Independence from U.S. hegemony. In this way, they would be forced to forge closer ties with their neighbor nations and those same nations would be forced to accept that Israel is a single state with recognized claims to their land holdings. Stability would gradually return to the region as a result.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Big_Appa on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:14 am

I believe in a two-state solution. I even devised a 4 stage plan to attempt to ease tensions in the region for a project once. None of the above choices are sufficient in describing my view.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by AltHistNerd13 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:53 am

I believe in a two-state solution with 1947 borders, but with a UN Buffer Zone and UN Peacekeeping forces in both countries to help in keeping the peace.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by DavidlVofGeorgia on Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:29 pm

Isrealis are one of the highest IQ races in the world. From a utilitarian point of view, it would be better if they evicted as many low IQ persons from as much territory as possible.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Hatshepsut on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:36 pm

DukeOfTea wrote:
Winston Churchill wrote:This is such a complex issue.
Yup, I definitely think that this is a situation where there is no right answer. No matter what is done, people will have a fair reason to be angry, and it will probably end with more bloodspill ):

Very true. But on the other hand, it will need to eventually get solved, somehow. The bloodshed, anger, and hurt could very much escalate into something worse than it is now if it isn't resolved someway, somehow.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by CptCrape on Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:52 pm

The way things are going now Jews are likely going to demographically replace Arabs in the coming decades, which could easily force a One Jewish State to be created.

The Jewish Birthrate in Israel has drastically increased while the Arab Birth rate has drastically decreased, now, Jews in the West Bank are giving birth to an average of 6-8 children, while Arabs only give birth to 3.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Cold War Communist on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:07 am

Korea is an example of a "two-state" solution. There is no "two-state" solution. A state was carved out of another, every entity nearby is hostile to it, and it refuses to be contained.

Teetering on the fence and offering token state solutions only lets the wound fester. Israel needs to be recognized as the single state that it is, including what is currently Palestinian territory, and their statehood must be made conditional on a constitutional amendment protecting Palestinian rights as a minority group in the full state of Israel.

We are dreaming if we think there is a diplomatic way to maintain two separate countries in one country's borders.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Malotun on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:04 am

I really admire Jews, I would like to see them control the region.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by CptCrape on Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:35 pm

Cold War Communist wrote:Korea is an example of a "two-state" solution. There is no "two-state" solution. A state was carved out of another, every entity nearby is hostile to it, and it refuses to be contained.

Teetering on the fence and offering token state solutions only lets the wound fester. Israel needs to be recognized as the single state that it is, including what is currently Palestinian territory, and their statehood must be made conditional on a constitutional amendment protecting Palestinian rights as a minority group in the full state of Israel.

We are dreaming if we think there is a diplomatic way to maintain two separate countries in one country's borders.
Korea isn't a very good example to bring up considering that is an Ideological conflict rather than an ethnic/religious conflict.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Cold War Communist on Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:15 pm

I'll explain my reasoning for using Korea as a baseline. It's only going to cover why I believe it's a good example, and how it connects.

While there are elements of the Cold War in the Korean conflict today, they are mostly secondary to the current issue between the Koreas which is: who is the legitimate ruler of the peninsula? They both recognize themselves as the one true Korea, similar to how Israel and Palestine recognize themselves as the one true state in the borders of modern Israeli territory.

Continuing the idea that there can be two separate states operating within the confines of one states borders will only lead to further conflict. Because Palestinian power is limited, you're going to deal with lots of guerrilla warfare and it will cost thousands of innocent lives.

On the flip side, recognizing the legitimacy of one state in the region ends the discussion. The land isn't coming back, so move on. Right now, Palestine has a goal to reach by lashing out: a return to the mandated borders. If we throw that out and let Israel have the whole of the territory with Palestinians given minority protections, that debate ends and we can start delegitimizing violent actors.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by CptCrape on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:18 am

Cold War Communist wrote:I'll explain my reasoning for using Korea as a baseline. It's only going to cover why I believe it's a good example, and how it connects.

While there are elements of the Cold War in the Korean conflict today, they are mostly secondary to the current issue between the Koreas which is: who is the legitimate ruler of the peninsula? They both recognize themselves as the one true Korea, similar to how Israel and Palestine recognize themselves as the one true state in the borders of modern Israeli territory.

Continuing the idea that there can be two separate states operating within the confines of one states borders will only lead to further conflict. Because Palestinian power is limited, you're going to deal with lots of guerrilla warfare and it will cost thousands of innocent lives.

On the flip side, recognizing the legitimacy of one state in the region ends the discussion. The land isn't coming back, so move on. Right now, Palestine has a goal to reach by lashing out: a return to the mandated borders. If we throw that out and let Israel have the whole of the territory with Palestinians given minority protections, that debate ends and we can start delegitimizing violent actors.
I see your reasoning, but the one state solution might not work. If the Arabs become a minority under full Israeli control whats stopping Nationalist/Zionist Jews from ethnically cleansing them in the future?
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Cold War Communist on Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:34 am

That is the problem with my pov...there's nothing stopping them from going overboard. You could monitor, observe, etc but over time the Palestinians would likely be phased out.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by DavidlVofGeorgia on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:37 pm

^ That is a good thing.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by eggcrate09 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:52 am

Very controversial and glad someone brought it up. I think that Palestine should have completely control of that region. Israel has committed many war crimes against the surrounding countries they oppose. Israel is only a thing because of British apologists wanting to give a homeland to a relgion. . . so basically they wanted a theocratic government in the middle east to protect future interests, and that sure has helped. Israel becoming a thing is a major cause for modern day terrorism on the scale it is today. Israel has no claim to the land "oh jews lived here in the iron age so we get dibs, no backsies"

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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by DavidlVofGeorgia on Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:18 pm

The demographics of Isreal show Jews outnumbering Arabs (some who are Druze/Christian) by 3 to 1.

The demographics are going against your argument. Soon there won't be any "Palestinians" left to create a state.

It would be like asking for Northern Indians to go back to Ukraine because they stole their land from southern Indians thousands of years ago.

I say this because the word "Palestinians" was first used by a terrorists to justify his actions. Genetically the Muslims in this region are Jordanians. "Palestinian" is a false identity.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Lord Yavimaya on Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:37 pm

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:Isrealis are one of the highest IQ races in the world. From a utilitarian point of view, it would be better if they evicted as many low IQ persons from as much territory as possible.
Source Please. I was taught that race literally has nothing to do with mean IQ, but maybe I am incorrect.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by mayexplains on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:23 pm

Israel forced their way into the land with the help of major powers and has the ability to obliterate any Arab nation, especially with the backing of America and all of NATO. Even if Palestine gets a state, there is no chance that it would be able to keep it.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Kim Jong-un on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:55 pm

As a Jew, I have a natural inclination to look out for Israel's interests. However, I'm going to be as impartial as possible here.

The short answer is that both sides have a legitimate claim to the Holy land, and at the same time both sides are equally at fault for the conflict.

Violence between Jews and Arabs broke out in the 1947 Palestinian Civil War, before Israel even became a state. The 1947 UN Partition Plan was initially accepted by the Jewish Agency, but the Arabs refused to allow any Jewish state to be erected on their land.

Since then, the conflict has appeared completely unsolvable as neither side is willing to budge an inch. A temporary truce has been in effect between the State of Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization since the Oslo Accords of 1993, but no permanent solution has been agreed upon because the interests of either side are seen as completely incompatible with those of the other, especially where Jerusalem is concerned, and violence persists between Arab nationalists and Israeli security forces.

In short, there's no end to this conflict in sight because both sides are too stubborn to reach a compromise in the interest of peace. And if (god forbid) this sectarian conflict ever spawns an international one that threatens Israel's sovereignty, Israel is prepared to use nuclear weapons to defend itself.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Johnnythewizard on Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:35 pm

Israeli ownership of the region goes back MUCH farther than Arab ownership does, by nearly 1,000 years. Israel has, and always will be, a land of Israelis

(And If anyone's wondering, this is coming from a Catholic)
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Kim Jong-un on Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:09 pm

Johnnythewizard wrote:Israeli ownership of the region goes back MUCH farther than Arab ownership does, by nearly 1,000 years. Israel has, and always will be, a land of Israelis

(And If anyone's wondering, this is coming from a Catholic)

Even so, some ancient memory of where the Jews used to live thousands of years ago does not justify the displacement of 1.7 million members of a population that had the sole immediate claim to the land they occupied, a claim which was entirely uncontested until the 1940s.

If I just moved in and occupied someone else's house on the grounds that I used to live there, that I was raised in said house and it was my destiny to return there, and displaced the occupants who had the legitimate title to that property, they'd think I was nuts.

So while I strongly support the independence and security of the State of Israel as it now exists, I simply don't buy into the idea that the Jews had any more of a right to the land of Palestine than the Arabs.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Johnnythewizard on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:58 am

Max Hess wrote:
Johnnythewizard wrote:Israeli ownership of the region goes back MUCH farther than Arab ownership does, by nearly 1,000 years. Israel has, and always will be, a land of Israelis

(And If anyone's wondering, this is coming from a Catholic)

Even so, some ancient memory of where the Jews used to live thousands of years ago does not justify the displacement of 1.7 million members of a population that had the sole immediate claim to the land they occupied, a claim which was entirely uncontested until the 1940s.

If I just moved in and occupied someone else's house on the grounds that I used to live there, that I was raised in said house and it was my destiny to return there, and displaced the occupants who had the legitimate title to that property, they'd think I was nuts.

So while I strongly support the independence and security of the State of Israel as it now exists, I simply don't buy into the idea that the Jews had any more of a right to the land of Palestine than the Arabs.

The house analogy is more like this:

You are raised and living in your house, then someone (the Persians) comes in and forcibly takes it from you, then someone else (the Romans) does the same. Then someone comes to take it forcibly from them (the Arabs). Some try to help you get it back (Crusaders), but they disagree with you on who should own it, then they just leave. And then, another person (the Turks) takes it and keeps it for even longer while you are homeless. They then give it to someone (the "Palestinians") even though it's not theirs to give. And you come back to reclaim the property that was stolen from you.
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Re: Stance on Israel/Palestine?

Post by Kim Jong-un on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:48 am

Johnnythewizard wrote:
Max Hess wrote:
Johnnythewizard wrote:Israeli ownership of the region goes back MUCH farther than Arab ownership does, by nearly 1,000 years. Israel has, and always will be, a land of Israelis

(And If anyone's wondering, this is coming from a Catholic)

Even so, some ancient memory of where the Jews used to live thousands of years ago does not justify the displacement of 1.7 million members of a population that had the sole immediate claim to the land they occupied, a claim which was entirely uncontested until the 1940s.

If I just moved in and occupied someone else's house on the grounds that I used to live there, that I was raised in said house and it was my destiny to return there, and displaced the occupants who had the legitimate title to that property, they'd think I was nuts.

So while I strongly support the independence and security of the State of Israel as it now exists, I simply don't buy into the idea that the Jews had any more of a right to the land of Palestine than the Arabs.

The house analogy is more like this:

You are raised and living in your house, then someone (the Persians) comes in and forcibly takes it from you, then someone else (the Romans) does the same. Then someone comes to take it forcibly from them (the Arabs). Some try to help you get it back (Crusaders), but they disagree with you on who should own it, then they just leave. And then, another person (the Turks) takes it and keeps it for even longer while you are homeless. They then give it to someone (the "Palestinians") even though it's not theirs to give. And you come back to reclaim the property that was stolen from you.

I admit my house analogy was significantly oversimplified. Palestine can't really be compared to a house. It's a lot easier to reclaim a house from a family of four than it is to evacuate an entire population of millions of people from a whole country.

In the end, it doesn't matter who has the historical right to the land; all that matters is how people's lives will be affected by any action we take in the future. And the aggression shown by Israeli officials towards native-born Palestinian Arabs (the wall, racial discrimination, outright colonization of the West Bank) is absolutely unacceptable regardless of which nationalist myth you believe in.
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