Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

[DuceMoosolini]

Here's a link to a photocopied page from Patterns of Prejudice, UK-based double-blind peer reviewed academic journal about social exclusion. They cite several ICRC bulletins concerning those false numbers of Holocaust deaths. This has become a serious problem for the International Red Cross, as more and more people are writing to them seeking to confirm their own deluded beliefs. The International Red Cross organization considers these attempts at revision to be "revolting," a "hatchet job," and "propaganda."

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0031322X.1978.9969431

[Adolf Francolini]

For worldwide Jewish population statistics, in 1939 the population was at 16.728 million but by 1945 it was at roughly 11,000,000. Jewish population still hasn't recovered fully, as now it's in the 14 million range.

Sources: JewishVirtualLibrary and USHMM

Here's a good source for population by specific European country: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

As the Jewish Virtual Library and Holocaust Memorial Museum are Jewish-dominated institutions, there is a considerable conflict of interest with the sourcing. Are you aware of any nonpartisan atlases, or similar documents, which detail the Jewish population within various nations, published throughout the 1930s onwards? Preferably including the United States, Palestine, etc. to help account for Jewish immigration and resettlement. This would help to confirm the claims of the JVL and HMM.

How is the Holocaust Memorial Museum a Jewish-dominated institution?

Here's the Wikipedia entry on the governance of the USHMM:

"Since the museum opened, the council has been led by the following officers:[32]

Chairman Miles Lerman and Vice Chairman Ruth B. Mandel, appointed by President Bill Clinton in 1993
Chairman Rabbi Irving Greenberg, appointed by President Clinton in 2000
Chairman Fred S. Zeidman, appointed by President George W. Bush in 2002; and Vice Chairman Joel M. Geiderman, appointed by President Bush in 2005
The council has appointed the following as directors of the museum:[32]

Jeshajahu Weinberg, 1987–94
Walter Reich, 1995–98
Sara J. Bloomfield, 1999–"

Every single one of these people (aside from the presidents appointing them of course) are Jewish. One of the chairmen was literally a Rabbi.

[CptCrape]

My biggest issue with Holocaust deniers is that the numbers don't line up. Prior to WW2, 9.5 Million Jews lived in Europe, today that number is 1.4 Million and dropping. If there wasn't a genocide, where did they all go? And don't say the US or Israel, because even with the immigrants they attracted, the Jewish communities are still smaller than they would be if all of Europe's Jews left.

[CptCrape]

For worldwide Jewish population statistics, in 1939 the population was at 16.728 million but by 1945 it was at roughly 11,000,000. Jewish population still hasn't recovered fully, as now it's in the 14 million range.

Sources: JewishVirtualLibrary and USHMM

Here's a good source for population by specific European country: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

As the Jewish Virtual Library and Holocaust Memorial Museum are Jewish-dominated institutions, there is a considerable conflict of interest with the sourcing. Are you aware of any nonpartisan atlases, or similar documents, which detail the Jewish population within various nations, published throughout the 1930s onwards? Preferably including the United States, Palestine, etc. to help account for Jewish immigration and resettlement. This would help to confirm the claims of the JVL and HMM.

How is the Holocaust Memorial Museum a Jewish-dominated institution?

Here's the Wikipedia entry on the governance of the USHMM:

"Since the museum opened, the council has been led by the following officers:[32]

Chairman Miles Lerman and Vice Chairman Ruth B. Mandel, appointed by President Bill Clinton in 1993
Chairman Rabbi Irving Greenberg, appointed by President Clinton in 2000
Chairman Fred S. Zeidman, appointed by President George W. Bush in 2002; and Vice Chairman Joel M. Geiderman, appointed by President Bush in 2005
The council has appointed the following as directors of the museum:[32]

Jeshajahu Weinberg, 1987–94
Walter Reich, 1995–98
Sara J. Bloomfield, 1999–"

Every single one of these people (aside from the presidents appointing them of course) are Jewish. One of the chairmen was literally a Rabbi.

Is it really a surprise that the US Holocaust Memorial Museum is run by Jews?

[Adolf Francolini]

Here's a link to a photocopied page from Patterns of Prejudice, UK-based double-blind peer reviewed academic journal about social exclusion. They cite several ICRC bulletins concerning those false numbers of Holocaust deaths. This has become a serious problem for the International Red Cross, as more and more people are writing to them seeking to confirm their own deluded beliefs. The International Red Cross organization considers these attempts at revision to be "revolting," a "hatchet job," and "propaganda."

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0031322X.1978.9969431

OK thanks. The first reply you posted on the matter I would find insufficient, since it's just writings on a website who's stated mission is to combat 'holocaust denial' (and not everything written on some internet site is necessarily accurate), and I would've requested a photographic copy of that letter; however, this second source you just posted I do find sufficient due to its citations. Now all we need is positive evidence of the 11 million assertions.

[Adolf Francolini]

My biggest issue with Holocaust deniers is that the numbers don't line up. Prior to WW2, 9.5 Million Jews lived in Europe, today that number is 1.4 Million and dropping. If there wasn't a genocide, where did they all go? And don't say the US or Israel, because even with the immigrants they attracted, the Jewish communities are still smaller than they would be if all of Europe's Jews left.

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

Forgive me from being so skeptical, but many of the people citing these statistics tend to link to Jewish organizations like the USHMM, SPLC, ADL, etc.

EDIT: In your last post, you might want to fix the quote, your reply is hidden within mine

[Cold War Communist]

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

You could similarly provide documentation that proves there was no change in the global Jewish Population before,
during, and after the Holocaust.

[CptCrape]

My biggest issue with Holocaust deniers is that the numbers don't line up. Prior to WW2, 9.5 Million Jews lived in Europe, today that number is 1.4 Million and dropping. If there wasn't a genocide, where did they all go? And don't say the US or Israel, because even with the immigrants they attracted, the Jewish communities are still smaller than they would be if all of Europe's Jews left.

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

Forgive me from being so skeptical, but many of the people citing these statistics tend to link to Jewish organizations like the USHMM, SPLC, ADL, etc.

EDIT: In your last post, you might want to fix the quote, your reply is hidden within mine

Fixed.

[Adolf Francolini]

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

You could similarly provide documentation that proves there was no change in the global Jewish Population before,
during, and after the Holocaust.

Well I expect there to be a change of some sort; after all, hundreds of thousands died at the least, and millions at the most. And some too were born, of course.

Regardless, the burden of proof for the six million figure (or 5.93 or whatever the figure was that I think ETS claimed) falls on those claiming it. Aside from the Red Cross figures, which have been called into doubt, I haven't put forth a figure of my own, because frankly I'm not certain what number did die. I'm certain that if everyone is so very sure on the six million number, there should be ample evidence for it.

[CptCrape]

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

You could similarly provide documentation that proves there was no change in the global Jewish Population before,
during, and after the Holocaust.

Well I expect there to be a change of some sort; after all, hundreds of thousands died at the least, and millions at the most. And some too were born, of course.  

Regardless, the burden of proof for the six million figure (or 5.93 or whatever the figure was that I think ETS claimed) falls on those claiming it. Aside from the Red Cross figures, which have been called into doubt, I haven't put forth a figure of my own, because frankly I'm not certain what number did die. I'm certain that if everyone is so very sure on the six million number, there should be ample evidence for it.

I Doubt we'll ever be certain what the true number was.

[DuceMoosolini]

(After researching a bit into the 6 million number, the most credible sources without fail range from 5 to 6 million total Jewish deaths, a wide margin of error explained by errors in census, chaos of war, Nazi destruction of evidence, census inefficiencies due to the time period, and differences in research methodologies. The greatest source of controversy is the number of Jews killed in the USSR, due to the untruthful nature of that government as well as the nature of the murders; those Jews were killed by mobile combat units, not camps, and were not as thoroughly documented. But here is a list of some of the sources I found most convincing. With one exception (and you'll see what it is) I tried to ensure these sources were either non-Jewish or else confirmed by credible non-Jewish publications and individuals.)

Source: World Almanac, 1949
Estimate: 5.3 million dead
Basis: Updated population statistics between the years 1939 and 1947
Link to photocopy (look at upper left): http://fathersmanifesto.net/jews/jews1949z.jpg
Notes: Ironically, this photocopy was hosted on a denier website. The almanac does not claim to show the total deaths in the Holocaust; it just presents population stats for Jews living worldwide in the years of 1939 and 1947. I did the math and rounded the numbers.


Source: Nuremberg Trials, transcript hosted on Yale's Avalon Project website, specifically referencing testimony given on Dec. 14, 1945
Estimate: 6 million
Basis: Testimony from Nazi officials, presented to the court by the US prosecutor
Direct Quotes:

In this period of 3 years, according to the records of the then Governor General of Occupied Poland, between 2,400,000 and 3,400,000 Jews had been eliminated.
The Prosecution could offer this Tribunal a wealth of evidence on the total number of Jews who died by Nazi hands, but it is believed that cumulative evidence would not vary the guilt of these defendants.
I do wish, however, to offer one document, a statement, to establish the deaths of 4 million Jews in camps and deaths of 2 million Jews by the State Police in the East, making a total of 6 million- Document 2738-PS, Exhibit USA-296. This is a statement-of Adolf Eichmann, Chief of the Jewish Section of the Gestapo, and the source of the figures quoted-made by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, Deputy Group Leader of the foreign section of the Security Police Amt IV of the RSHA. Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, in affidavit form, made the following statement; and I quote from Page 2:
"Approximately 4 million Jews had been killed in the various concentration camps, while an additional 2 million met death in other ways, the major part of which were shot by operational squads of the Security Police during the campaign against Russia."
May I, in conclusion, emphasize that the captured documents in evidence are, almost without exception, from the official sources of the Nazi Party.

Link to source (Ctrl-F to find the exact spot): http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/12-14-45.asp
Notes: There's a lot more content than what I quoted.


Source: Dr. Raul Hilberg's "Destruction of the Jews in Europe" Reviewed by Dr. Tom Lawson of King Alfred's University College in Winchester
Estimate: 5.1 million
Basis: Examination of war-era German primary records obtained during Nuremberg proceedings
Links to scholarly review and Hilberg's obituary: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/394
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/07/local/me-hilberg7
Notes: Polish historian Franciszek Piper, the man partly responsible for revising Auschwitz death tolls down from 4 to 1 million, theorizes that this estimate is lower than the others due to Hilberg's lack of attention given to any deaths not directly recorded from the camps or official executions, such as the mobile murders in the USSR I reference above. However, I have been unable to find any direct quotes from him concerning this. Hilberg's work itself is considered to be one of the first and foremost analyses of the Holocaust.


Source: "The Routledge Companion to European History Since 1763" by John Stevenson and and Chris Cook, citing Lucy Dawdiowicz's "War Against the Jews"
Estimate: 5,933,900
Basis: Examination of Eastern European population statistics gathered before and after the war
Link to photocopy: https://books.google.com/books?id=Z_dSX4t_ApwC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=lucy+dawidowicz+war+against+the+jews+5933900&source=bl&ots=TY8SYYVo3f&sig=pG-RWWJWMBazaQirt4hiudNyyoI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp1aDC-5bVAhVl6oMKHRkzBrgQ6AEIRjAJ#v=onepage&q=lucy%20dawidowicz%20war%20against%20the%20jews%205933900&f=false
Notes: includes a helpful country-by-country breakdown. Dawdiowicz is considered another seminal Holocaust historian, and the cited academic journal is published in London.


Source: "The Holocaust: A German Historian Examines the Genocide" by Dr. Wolfgang Benz, published 1999
Estimate: roughly 6.1 million
Direct Quote:

The goal of annihilating all of the Jews of Europe, as it was proclaimed at the conference in the villa Am Grossen Wannsee in January 1942, was not reached. Yet the six million murder victims make the holocaust a unique crime in the history of mankind. The number of victims—and with certainty the following represent the minimum number in each case—cannot express that adequately. Numbers are just too abstract. However they must be stated in order to make clear the dimension of the genocide: 165,000 Jews from Germany, 65,000 from Austria, 32,000 from France and Belgium, more than 100,000 from the Netherlands, 60,000 from Greece, the same number from Yugoslavia, more than 140,000 from Czechoslovakia, half a million from Hungary, 2.2 million from the Soviet Union, and 2.7 million from Poland. To these numbers must be added all those killed in the pogroms and massacres in Romania and Transitrien [sic!] (over 200,000) and the deported and murdered Jews from Albania and Norway, Denmark and Italy, from Luxembourg and Bulgaria.

Basis: analysis of primary sources conducted at the Technical University of Berlin
Link to its page on Colombia University Press: https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-holocaust/9780231112147
Notes: Benz directs research into anti-Semitism at the Technical University of Berlin


Source: Anglo American Committee of Inquiry Regarding the Problems of European Jewry and Palestine
Estimate: 5,721,500
Basis: Postwar investigations
Direct Quote:

(Conclusions of the Anglo-American committee for studying the Nazi genocide inflicted on the Jews of Europe, with exact breakdown, country by country.)

Numbers of missing Jews (post-war minus pre-war):
Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxembourg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews that were exterminated 5,721,500

Link to source (you have to Ctrl F again to see it in the article if the quote isn't enough): http://remember.org/history-root-rev.html
Notes: Another country-by-country breakdown. This isn't a photocopy of the actual report, since it hasn't been digitized yet. This was the closest I could get, so I included the exact quote.


Source: Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust memorial
Estimate: very firm >4.5 million
Basis: They have a project which seeks to collect names and information of every murdered Jew. It's a pretty interesting enterprise, actually. They claim to have collected 4.5 million names at current time.
Link: https://yvng.yadvashem.org/


Six million murdered Jews is in no way a precise total. There can never be a precise total, for a wide variety of reasons. But it has entered public consciousness simply because it is the number closest to being a scholarly consensus. Anyways, there are more sources, but I'm too darn tired to go hunting for them at the moment.

[Arandomperson3000and1]

For worldwide Jewish population statistics, in 1939 the population was at 16.728 million but by 1945 it was at roughly 11,000,000. Jewish population still hasn't recovered fully, as now it's in the 14 million range.

Sources: JewishVirtualLibrary and USHMM

Here's a good source for population by specific European country: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

As the Jewish Virtual Library and Holocaust Memorial Museum are Jewish-dominated institutions, there is a considerable conflict of interest with the sourcing. Are you aware of any nonpartisan atlases, or similar documents, which detail the Jewish population within various nations, published throughout the 1930s onwards? Preferably including the United States, Palestine, etc. to help account for Jewish immigration and resettlement. This would help to confirm the claims of the JVL and HMM.

How is the Holocaust Memorial Museum a Jewish-dominated institution?

Here's the Wikipedia entry on the governance of the USHMM:

"Since the museum opened, the council has been led by the following officers:[32]

Chairman Miles Lerman and Vice Chairman Ruth B. Mandel, appointed by President Bill Clinton in 1993
Chairman Rabbi Irving Greenberg, appointed by President Clinton in 2000
Chairman Fred S. Zeidman, appointed by President George W. Bush in 2002; and Vice Chairman Joel M. Geiderman, appointed by President Bush in 2005
The council has appointed the following as directors of the museum:[32]

Jeshajahu Weinberg, 1987–94
Walter Reich, 1995–98
Sara J. Bloomfield, 1999–"

Every single one of these people (aside from the presidents appointing them of course) are Jewish. One of the chairmen was literally a Rabbi.

Is it really a surprise that the US Holocaust Memorial Museum is run by Jews?

I kinda didn't really know much about the chairmen of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and the museum's history like how it was founded etc.

[Adolf Francolini]

(After researching a bit into the 6 million number, the most credible sources without fail range from 5 to 6 million total Jewish deaths, a wide margin of error explained by errors in census, chaos of war, Nazi destruction of evidence, census inefficiencies due to the time period, and differences in research methodologies. The greatest source of controversy is the number of Jews killed in the USSR, due to the untruthful nature of that government as well as the nature of the murders; those Jews were killed by mobile combat units, not camps, and were not as thoroughly documented. But here is a list of some of the sources I found most convincing. With one exception (and you'll see what it is) I tried to ensure these sources were either non-Jewish or else confirmed by credible non-Jewish publications and individuals.)

Source: World Almanac, 1949
Estimate: 5.3 million dead
Basis: Updated population statistics between the years 1939 and 1947
Link to photocopy (look at upper left): http://fathersmanifesto.net/jews/jews1949z.jpg
Notes: Ironically, this photocopy was hosted on a denier website. The almanac does not claim to show the total deaths in the Holocaust; it just presents population stats for Jews living worldwide in the years of 1939 and 1947. I did the math and rounded the numbers.


Source: Nuremberg Trials, transcript hosted on Yale's Avalon Project website, specifically referencing testimony given on Dec. 14, 1945
Estimate: 6 million
Basis: Testimony from Nazi officials, presented to the court by the US prosecutor
Direct Quotes:

In this period of 3 years, according to the records of the then Governor General of Occupied Poland, between 2,400,000 and 3,400,000 Jews had been eliminated.
The Prosecution could offer this Tribunal a wealth of evidence on the total number of Jews who died by Nazi hands, but it is believed that cumulative evidence would not vary the guilt of these defendants.
I do wish, however, to offer one document, a statement, to establish the deaths of 4 million Jews in camps and deaths of 2 million Jews by the State Police in the East, making a total of 6 million- Document 2738-PS, Exhibit USA-296. This is a statement-of Adolf Eichmann, Chief of the Jewish Section of the Gestapo, and the source of the figures quoted-made by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, Deputy Group Leader of the foreign section of the Security Police Amt IV of the RSHA. Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, in affidavit form, made the following statement; and I quote from Page 2:
"Approximately 4 million Jews had been killed in the various concentration camps, while an additional 2 million met death in other ways, the major part of which were shot by operational squads of the Security Police during the campaign against Russia."
May I, in conclusion, emphasize that the captured documents in evidence are, almost without exception, from the official sources of the Nazi Party.

Link to source (Ctrl-F to find the exact spot): http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/12-14-45.asp
Notes: There's a lot more content than what I quoted.


Source: Dr. Raul Hilberg's "Destruction of the Jews in Europe" Reviewed by Dr. Tom Lawson of King Alfred's University College in Winchester
Estimate: 5.1 million
Basis: Examination of war-era German primary records obtained during Nuremberg proceedings
Links to scholarly review and Hilberg's obituary: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/394
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/07/local/me-hilberg7
Notes: Polish historian Franciszek Piper, the man partly responsible for revising Auschwitz death tolls down from 4 to 1 million, theorizes that this estimate is lower than the others due to Hilberg's lack of attention given to any deaths not directly recorded from the camps or official executions, such as the mobile murders in the USSR I reference above. However, I have been unable to find any direct quotes from him concerning this. Hilberg's work itself is considered to be one of the first and foremost analyses of the Holocaust.


Source: "The Routledge Companion to European History Since 1763" by John Stevenson and and Chris Cook, citing Lucy Dawdiowicz's "War Against the Jews"
Estimate: 5,933,900
Basis: Examination of Eastern European population statistics gathered before and after the war
Link to photocopy: https://books.google.com/books?id=Z_dSX4t_ApwC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=lucy+dawidowicz+war+against+the+jews+5933900&source=bl&ots=TY8SYYVo3f&sig=pG-RWWJWMBazaQirt4hiudNyyoI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp1aDC-5bVAhVl6oMKHRkzBrgQ6AEIRjAJ#v=onepage&q=lucy%20dawidowicz%20war%20against%20the%20jews%205933900&f=false
Notes: includes a helpful country-by-country breakdown. Dawdiowicz is considered another seminal Holocaust historian, and the cited academic journal is published in London.


Source: "The Holocaust: A German Historian Examines the Genocide" by Dr. Wolfgang Benz, published 1999
Estimate: roughly 6.1 million
Direct Quote:

The goal of annihilating all of the Jews of Europe, as it was proclaimed at the conference in the villa Am Grossen Wannsee in January 1942, was not reached. Yet the six million murder victims make the holocaust a unique crime in the history of mankind. The number of victims—and with certainty the following represent the minimum number in each case—cannot express that adequately. Numbers are just too abstract. However they must be stated in order to make clear the dimension of the genocide: 165,000 Jews from Germany, 65,000 from Austria, 32,000 from France and Belgium, more than 100,000 from the Netherlands, 60,000 from Greece, the same number from Yugoslavia, more than 140,000 from Czechoslovakia, half a million from Hungary, 2.2 million from the Soviet Union, and 2.7 million from Poland. To these numbers must be added all those killed in the pogroms and massacres in Romania and Transitrien [sic!] (over 200,000) and the deported and murdered Jews from Albania and Norway, Denmark and Italy, from Luxembourg and Bulgaria.

Basis: analysis of primary sources conducted at the Technical University of Berlin
Link to its page on Colombia University Press: https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-holocaust/9780231112147
Notes: Benz directs research into anti-Semitism at the Technical University of Berlin


Source: Anglo American Committee of Inquiry Regarding the Problems of European Jewry and Palestine
Estimate: 5,721,500
Basis: Postwar investigations
Direct Quote:

(Conclusions of the Anglo-American committee for studying the Nazi genocide inflicted on the Jews of Europe, with exact breakdown, country by country.)

Numbers of missing Jews (post-war minus pre-war):
Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxembourg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews that were exterminated 5,721,500

Link to source (you have to Ctrl F again to see it in the article if the quote isn't enough): http://remember.org/history-root-rev.html
Notes: Another country-by-country breakdown. This isn't a photocopy of the actual report, since it hasn't been digitized yet. This was the closest I could get, so I included the exact quote.


Source: Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust memorial
Estimate: very firm >4.5 million
Basis: They have a project which seeks to collect names and information of every murdered Jew. It's a pretty interesting enterprise, actually. They claim to have collected 4.5 million names at current time.
Link: https://yvng.yadvashem.org/


Six million murdered Jews is in no way a precise total. There can never be a precise total, for a wide variety of reasons. But it has entered public consciousness simply because it is the number closest to being a scholarly consensus. Anyways, there are more sources, but I'm too darn tired to go hunting for them at the moment.

Good information. I do tend to hold a bit of suspicion for things published after the war, which is why I insisted on documents published across its time period (before, during, and after). However, two of these sources I hadn't seen previously, so I'll investigate their own sourcing further.

Regarding the Nuremberg trials, there are a few glaring issues. Firstly, the defendants were obviously trying to be acquitted, or have a lesser sentence, and thus they might be prone to cooperate with whatever assumptions were made in order to come at it from a different angle, that they think would be more beneficial to them. This is one potential reason Eichmann virtually never challenged any of the accusations made against him, instead relying on technicalities like jurisdiction, and dutiful responsibility. Another issue is associated with potential for torture, or at least threat of it. It is known that once a prisoner is in one's captivity, they can be made to say essentially anything. This is why modern military doctrines often involve, in the event of capture, a soldier going along with the requests of his captors, providing misguiding information when possible, but usually not directly resisting, which is impossible at the end of the day. If these trials produced documents from during the war which detail the number of Jews killed and where, then great, but so far I've only seen personal statements, the majority of which are from after the war. And of those from during the war, there is plenty of information suggesting hostility towards Jews, Poles, and Russians, but from what I have seen a lack of clear designation for any particular population of Jews or other groups to be actually exterminated en masse in the camps.

That said, you did provide a few sources I hadn't before seen, which I should review more thoroughly, along with the Nuremberg transcripts, in case such an explicit order might indeed be hiding in the woodworks.

[EmperorTigerstar]

My biggest issue with Holocaust deniers is that the numbers don't line up. Prior to WW2, 9.5 Million Jews lived in Europe, today that number is 1.4 Million and dropping. If there wasn't a genocide, where did they all go? And don't say the US or Israel, because even with the immigrants they attracted, the Jewish communities are still smaller than they would be if all of Europe's Jews left.

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

Forgive me from being so skeptical, but many of the people citing these statistics tend to link to Jewish organizations like the USHMM, SPLC, ADL, etc.

EDIT: In your last post, you might want to fix the quote, your reply is hidden within mine

That's not typically something atlases have. The best options are census data for individual countries. Holocaust Museums are generally best because they've spent so much time collecting info about individuals to where they've got nearly every person who died in the holocaust and connected them to their identity and where they came from. I've never seen an atlas on "Jewish population spread before, during, and after World War II" other than maybe a map showing how many immigrated to Israel and from where, but that's a different matter.

[Adolf Francolini]

My biggest issue with Holocaust deniers is that the numbers don't line up. Prior to WW2, 9.5 Million Jews lived in Europe, today that number is 1.4 Million and dropping. If there wasn't a genocide, where did they all go? And don't say the US or Israel, because even with the immigrants they attracted, the Jewish communities are still smaller than they would be if all of Europe's Jews left.

Great, so as I mentioned in a previous post, this can all be confirmed by posting a photographic copy of an independent atlas or similar document published during that time period which details population statistics of Jews across the world.

Forgive me from being so skeptical, but many of the people citing these statistics tend to link to Jewish organizations like the USHMM, SPLC, ADL, etc.

EDIT: In your last post, you might want to fix the quote, your reply is hidden within mine

That's not typically something atlases have. The best options are census data for individual countries. Holocaust Museums are generally best because they've spent so much time collecting info about individuals to where they've got nearly every person who died in the holocaust and connected them to their identity and where they came from. I've never seen an atlas on "Jewish population spread before, during, and after World War II" other than maybe a map showing how many immigrated to Israel and from where, but that's a different matter.

Yeah, censuses are fine as well. The thing with individual records is that it's impossible for one person such as myself to cross-reference and review the sourcing for so many of these people, which I consider necessary for secondary sources I don't necessarily trust in and of themselves, such as the USHMM and related Jewish organizations. So, aggregate data from the time period, of any sort (atlases, censuses, whatever), is usually best in my view.

[B12ad]

I think dis-info is important to understand when it comes to the seriousness of this topic. I'll be honest that I'm doubtful of the official numbers as newspapers have notated the "six million" figure far before the event ever had the chance to occur. They were probably indicating the amount of European Jews that were potentially at risk from their perceived enemy, anti-Semitic Europe. No one can ever seem to admit that maybe the Jews were the original masters of propaganda and continue to be as such to this day. So in a peculiar way that leaves me thinking that everything is a "pure coincidence." I'm not saying they're behind everything, but I'm sure I have the right to free speech to blame them and say that the holocaust never happened because there are definitely still European Jews around to this day, if it REALLY happened the way they said it did, then wouldn't they all have been eliminated in those extermination camps? We all know that Jews weren't the only ones exclusively killed during this dark chapter of total war in World History but they always receive the most attention for it. Such is the nature of industrialized warfare. I'm not condoning it, but I just don't imagine the Holocaust as more important than any other genocide in human history beyond that it is the most recent... or is it?

Source: http://balder.org/judea/billeder-judea/Scan-New-York-Times-Six-Million-Since-1869-Composite-800.jpg
seems like they were the ones to originally give the Nazis the idea..
pls no shoah me

[EmperorTigerstar]

No one can ever seem to admit that maybe the Jews were the original masters of propaganda and continue to be as such to this day. So in a peculiar way that leaves me thinking that everything is a "pure coincidence." I'm not saying they're behind everything, but I'm sure I have the right to free speech to blame them and say that the holocaust never happened because there are definitely still European Jews around to this day, if it REALLY happened the way they said it did, then wouldn't they all have been eliminated in those extermination camps? We all know that Jews weren't the only ones exclusively killed during this dark chapter of total war in World History but they always receive the most attention for it. Such is the nature of industrialized warfare. I'm not condoning it, but I just don't imagine the Holocaust as more important than any other genocide in human history beyond that it is the most recent... or is it?

What exactly do you mean by "original masters of propaganda?"   The Jews had historically been the victim of anti-semitic propaganda since medieval times when they were blamed for causing the plague by poisoning wells and in Germany considered demonic worshipers who sacrificed children to the devil. Jews hardly had any propaganda powers, especially before World War II.

Just because the Holocaust didn't kill all of the Jews in Europe doesn't mean it didn't happen. Remember, there were Jews that were liberated. The Germans weren't going to have the resources to finish the job for several years while they had a war to worry about. That's like saying World War II never happened because Berlin, Dresden, London, and Paris are still around and look like they've never been bombed to the ground. We have proof of the holocaust and its attrocities from recovered records (although the Nazis did perish many of them to save face), photos and witnesses during the liberation of the camps on both the Soviet front and the Western Front. The Soviets/Russians certainly weren't known for treating the Jews well yet they can account the horrors of what happened.

As for Jews receiving the most attention, that's for a few reasons:
1. Jews were a high source of demonization in Nazi propaganda from the beginning. Groups like the disabled, homosexuals, Roma/gypsies, and others that were killed weren't nearly demonized as much.
2. More Jews were killed than any other group, so naturally they receive more attention. That's just math.
3. Sadly, homosexuals and Roma at the time had no friends from anyone. Jews while demonized by many were also a part of many country's culture, as after all Jesus was a Jew and the Torah gave Christians the old testament.

The reason the Holocaust is considered so important is because the idea of a factory-like methodical killing of entire groups of people in a supposedly "civilized and modern" society that has many cultural similarities to the United States, the rest of Europe, etc.. is more chilling. Yes the Rwanda genocide is sad, but it did not have as much psychological effect because many people dismissed it as foreign people from a different culture in a less civilized society killing each other out of petty reasoning. You don't relate to the Rwandans usually as much as Europeans if you're from Europe or North America.


Also, that source makes no sense, as the population between the late 1860s and the 1930s would have changed tremendously. Six million Jews in Europe in 1869 is not gonna be the same population figure in 1939. Also the official records only say six million Jews died in the holocaust for the sake of rounding, as the number is actually 5.93 million.

[B12ad]

No one can ever seem to admit that maybe the Jews were the original masters of propaganda and continue to be as such to this day. So in a peculiar way that leaves me thinking that everything is a "pure coincidence." I'm not saying they're behind everything, but I'm sure I have the right to free speech to blame them and say that the holocaust never happened because there are definitely still European Jews around to this day, if it REALLY happened the way they said it did, then wouldn't they all have been eliminated in those extermination camps? We all know that Jews weren't the only ones exclusively killed during this dark chapter of total war in World History but they always receive the most attention for it. Such is the nature of industrialized warfare. I'm not condoning it, but I just don't imagine the Holocaust as more important than any other genocide in human history beyond that it is the most recent... or is it?

What exactly do you mean by "original masters of propaganda?"   The Jews had historically been the victim of anti-semitic propaganda since medieval times when they were blamed for causing the plague by poisoning wells and in Germany considered demonic worshipers who sacrificed children to the devil. Jews hardly had any propaganda powers, especially before World War II.

Just because the Holocaust didn't kill all of the Jews in Europe doesn't mean it didn't happen. Remember, there were Jews that were liberated. The Germans weren't going to have the resources to finish the job for several years while they had a war to worry about. That's like saying World War II never happened because Berlin, Dresden, London, and Paris are still around and look like they've never been bombed to the ground. We have proof of the holocaust and its attrocities from recovered records (although the Nazis did perish many of them to save face), photos and witnesses during the liberation of the camps on both the Soviet front and the Western Front. The Soviets/Russians certainly weren't known for treating the Jews well yet they can account the horrors of what happened.

As for Jews receiving the most attention, that's for a few reasons:
1. Jews were a high source of demonization in Nazi propaganda from the beginning. Groups like the disabled, homosexuals, Roma/gypsies, and others that were killed weren't nearly demonized as much.
2. More Jews were killed than any other group, so naturally they receive more attention. That's just math.
3. Sadly, homosexuals and Roma at the time had no friends from anyone. Jews while demonized by many were also a part of many country's culture, as after all Jesus was a Jew and the Torah gave Christians the old testament.

The reason the Holocaust is considered so important is because the idea of a factory-like methodical killing of entire groups of people in a supposedly "civilized and modern" society that has many cultural similarities to the United States, the rest of Europe, etc.. is more chilling. Yes the Rwanda genocide is sad, but it did not have as much psychological effect because many people dismissed it as foreign people from a different culture in a less civilized society killing each other out of petty reasoning. You don't relate to the Rwandans usually as much as Europeans if you're from Europe or North America.


Also, that source makes no sense, as the population between the late 1860s and the 1930s would have changed tremendously. Six million Jews in Europe in 1869 is not gonna be the same population figure in 1939. Also the official records only say six million Jews died in the holocaust for the sake of rounding, as the number is actually 5.93 million.

Perhaps I've taken the idea of fake news too far? My only point is that if I look at these newspapers in this particular source I have provided it mentions a meme of 6,000,000 which you claim is impossible but if that were the case then why is there a tally of 5.93 million. There must've been roughly that figure in Europe at the time. That being the case, the numbers still don't stay consistent between all measurements of data. It is my understanding that everything is basically war crimes and confirmed with records which oppose any faulty documentation on the events, but I still think these secondary sources ring true to the idea that press related information has been manipulating people since it's invention. Is there no evidence for such a claim that perhaps the European Jews memed their own demise and then got the payout the insurance money provides to all the remaining survivors of the ordeal.

Idk if you think I'm crazy I just like to use my imagination to get a real sense of just how horrible the nature of real war is. Instead of looking at hollywood myths and legends to do that for me. Ofc studying history for me was about as accurate as those fake ass maps you showcased recently..

Tell me, how do you really feel about the reality of human nature?

[ItsAGiraffe]

Perhaps I've taken the idea of fake news too far? My only point is that if I look at these newspapers in this particular source I have provided it mentions a meme of 6,000,000 which you claim is impossible but if that were the case then why is there a tally of 5.93 million.

And why, I just have to ask, are these illegible newspaper screenshots any less "fake" than other news (in a meta sort of way)?  Who's to say that these newspapers weren't created in the modern age to appear to be fake, so as to further a certain agenda?  That's the sort of skepticism you like, isn't it?  I'm doing it right, aren't I? Also, what the hell sort of eagles eyes do you have that you can make sense of an overcompressed Jpeg in font size 4?  Like, come on, most of the time you can't even see the full story.

It is my understanding that everything is basically war crimes and confirmed with records which oppose any faulty documentation on the events, but I still think these secondary sources ring true to the idea that press related information has been manipulating people since it's invention. Is there no evidence for such a claim that perhaps the European Jews memed their own demise and then got the payout the insurance money provides to all the remaining survivors of the ordeal.

I really don't understand what you mean to say with "...everything is basically war crimes and confirmed with records which oppose any faulty documentation of events."  It's not even really coherent.  As for European Jews playing dead for insurance money...you've dun lost me, homes.  Not only does this sound incredibly far-fetched, but it also seems that, from what I can gather, you only claim it's a valid statement because there are no sources to refute it...?   [/quote]

Idk if you think I'm crazy I just like to use my imagination to get a real sense of just how horrible the nature of real war is. Instead of looking at hollywood myths and legends to do that for me. Ofc studying history for me was about as accurate as those fake ass maps you showcased recently..

Okay.  Firstly, rude.  I'm sure Tiger puts tons of effort into making sure his maps' asses are real as day.  Sure as hell more effort than your ass has shown finding your one batch of newspapers.  Secondly, using your imagination to comprehend the reality of war is fruitless if you don't also know what went down in said war.  Hollywood myths and legends may be responsible for a metric fuckton of misconceptions in the public mind, but facts and numbers aren't one of them.  Those aren't interesting enough.

Tell me, how do you really feel about the reality of human nature?

Are you asking what humans are capable of, both good and evil, on the ever growing canvas of our time as a species, and the unimaginable rate and scale at which we have advanced and changed our world forever?  Or are you telling us why we should just naturally distrust "the Jew"?

[B12ad]

If the facts and numbers are so true than why is it that no matter how much the Holocaust is taught in schools it still bothers a lot people the way it's taught?

If something needs 80+ years of propaganda to maintain a certain world view then clearly my "fake" looking newspaper sources are nothing but overblown propaganda used by the Allies. Oh wait they're not even from the time period are they? It's not that the figure "6,000,000" hasn't been used in the media like that up until the current day. That's how we come up with 5.93 million as common knowledge instead of always cited.

Shit shouldn't be considered common knowledge as part an agenda based argument used in schools to teach children without citations all coming from shitty inaccurate history books written by those who make propaganda. It's easy for me to use my imagination because of my personality type, but clearly you think that's wrong when visualizing history so I guess I just won't imagine how the natsoc Germans were so bad then.

I don't exactly swallow everything told to me, if you're gonna claim I'm just saying to naturally distrust the Jew then think again. I'm saying to naturally distrust anyone who uses the meme figure "6,000,000"

Yeah these could be doctored images but there's so many copies of the said images in newspapers and newspapers have a habit of printing falsehoods throughout time but the truth stands here that those falsehoods WERE PRINTED.

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