Trump's Presidency- Good or Bad?

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:Trump approval gap on election day:  -21%

Trump approval gap today: -13.1%

Take a moment to take in those stats.  Trump is MORE liked today than he was on election day. If he was dividing Americans then he is doing a piss poor job. Maybe you aren't trying to unify?

source: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/trump_favorableunfavorable-5493.html

The fact still remains that he's never had a positive rating since actually being in office and he has the lowest rating of a sitting president of all time so far. (Granted we've only been tracking since Truman.)

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:@Big The hissy fits on Twitter and insulting the Media is just a side show. The media focus on that while Trump learns how to be a politician.

Merkel (who hates Trump) actually supported letting his daughter sit in. It is a common practice by the rest of the world.

He's barely learning anything. If he were really being a president he wouldn't be pulling off a side show, he'd be focused on policy, which he clearly isn't.

Big_Appa wrote:

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:@Big The hissy fits on Twitter and insulting the Media is just a side show. The media focus on that while Trump learns how to be a politician.

Merkel (who hates Trump) actually supported letting his daughter sit in. It is a common practice by the rest of the world.

He's barely learning anything. If he were really being a president he wouldn't be pulling off a side show, he'd be focused on policy, which he clearly isn't.

He's tried to be, but there are some hypocritical obstructionists preventing him from getting anything done. The Democrats put up with Republican obstruction for eight years, only to turn around and do the exact same thing at the first opportunity.

Cold War Communist wrote:

Big_Appa wrote:

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:@Big The hissy fits on Twitter and insulting the Media is just a side show. The media focus on that while Trump learns how to be a politician.

Merkel (who hates Trump) actually supported letting his daughter sit in. It is a common practice by the rest of the world.

He's barely learning anything. If he were really being a president he wouldn't be pulling off a side show, he'd be focused on policy, which he clearly isn't.

He's tried to be, but there are some hypocritical obstructionists preventing him from getting anything done. The Democrats put up with Republican obstruction for eight years, only to turn around and do the exact same thing at the first opportunity.

There's a difference between obstructing a president from getting anything done and PREVENTING that president from doing REALLY DUMB THINGS. For example, during the first term of Obama's presidency, Conservatives were hell-bent on preventing Obama from getting the credit of pulling our nation out of the recession. So, we ended up with a watered-down stimulus package thanks to the conservative obstructionism. And that stimulus package just barely saved our economy (Many Republicans still argue that it didn't even though we didn't slide deeper into the recession). Now, the tables have turned, but Democrats have justifiable reasons to prevent Trump from doing dumb shit like: Building an insanely expensive border wall that won't stop illegal immigrants, Banning Muslims from countries that haven't launched terrorist attacks on us, and repealing and replacing Obamacare (which works perfectly fine).

Tl;DR
Obstructing Obama from saving the economy, and then turning around and blaming Obama about not doing enough to save the economy: DUMB AND HYPOCRITICAL

Preventing Trump from doing stupid shit: NOT DUMB AND NOT HYPOCRITICAL

EmperorTigerstar wrote:

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:Trump's accomplishments:
limited travel ban
Froze federal hiring in executive branch
imposed new regulations on lobbying
Dakota Access and Keystone pipeline's Approval
Pulls CDC out of EPA conference
EPA cut: 513 mil state and tribal assistance, 193 mil climate programs, 109 mil environment programs and management
The Clean Air act no longer applies to carbon emissions
EPA can’t overrule federal permit decisions unless the permit is in clear violation of establish law
5000 new border patrol
defunding sanctuary cities + Kate's Law
Limited Syrian Cease Fire
Reconquest of Mosul + Encirclement of Raqqa
Pulled out of Paris Climate Agreement
Weapon sales to Taiwan and Saudi Arabia
detente with Russia

Overall, the economy is great, ISIS is on the run and we haven't had a terrorist attack since he took office. If things keep going this way then he will be re-elected.

Half of those things are bad and the other things weren't directly caused by his leadership. The collapsing of ISIS was already happening and him moving into the White House wasn't going to contribute or change that. Cutting the EPA and the clean air act is a bad idea for the environment and companies know they're rich enough to find a more efficient way to make more money if limiting their pollution really hurts them that much. It's 2017 not 1917. Plus the Paris Climate Accords had reasonable goals and it was stupid to pull out. What's wrong with keeping the planet healthy for the children and grandchildren who'll inherent it? The Dakota access pipeline is an environmental nightmare and HAS ALREADY SPILLED, not to mention it's on tribal land. The limiting of lobbying is complete BS as he still lets lobbyists bribe congress and other government members. The man claimed he'd drain the swamp yet put members from Exxon and Goldman Sachs on his cabinet for pete's sake. That's not draining the swamp that's increasing it. The economy is only great because Obama got us out of the recession and there's no way it wasn't going to be doing well unless Trump screws up harder than he already has.

Also, funny how on his travel ban he didn't include Saudi Arabia, a known funding of terrorists and the country that gave us the pilots that flew into the world trade center. Why do you think he failed to include them too? Because of oil and money.

Here's a quote from ETS in case you don't agree that most of what Trump has done is BS

Arden_Foxx wrote:Tl;DR
Obstructing Obama from saving the economy, and then turning around and blaming Obama about not doing enough to save the economy: DUMB AND HYPOCRITICAL

Preventing Trump from doing stupid shit: NOT DUMB AND NOT HYPOCRITICAL

I am using the abridged version of your quote for brevity. It doesn't matter how you feel about what he's doing (meaning, whether or not you think he's doing something stupid is irrelevant). The point is, it's hard to define a presidency based on what hasn't happened because a group of people affiliated with the opposite party keep preventing meaningful action.

I agree that any person's opinion of anything is not an accurate representation of how good/bad that thing is. What is an accurate representation of how good or bad a thing is are facts about that thing. I could rant for ages about cold hard facts on why what Trump has done is bad, but this thread already hosts a wealth of just that.

And I also agree that you cannot define a presidency on what that president is unable to do. But the last time I checked, Trump isn't having that big of a problem with doing what he wants to get done, thanks to all three branches of government being colored in red. If you have an example of any "meaningful action" Trump is trying to get done, but is being prevented, please do share.

Calling things "stupid" isn't a cold hard fact, though. If there's anything specific that you think is stupid that the Democratic Party prevented, and have facts to back it up, I'll gladly take a look.

As far as meaningful action blocked, note that this list is not all inclusive and that some of these actions have either gone through or have gained traction. I am giving examples of action that political opposition has either blocked (in whole or in part) at any given time during Trump's presidency. With that:

Democratic filibuster attempt for Supreme Courtn nominee

Court challenges to travel ban

Refusal to cooperate with sanctuary city executive order

Attempts to oppose Trump's cabinet picks (Betsy Devos comes to mind)

Currently, there are threats to cause a government shutdown over budget disputes for funding toward the EPA.

This information is not only readily available online, but in print and in news media as well.

Cold War Communist wrote:Calling things "stupid" isn't a cold hard fact, though. If there's anything specific that you think is stupid that the Democratic Party prevented, and have facts to back it up, I'll gladly take a look.

As far as meaningful action blocked, note that this list is not all inclusive and that some of these actions have either gone through or have gained traction. I am giving examples of action that political opposition has either blocked (in whole or in part) at any given time during Trump's presidency. With that:

Democratic filibuster attempt for Supreme Courtn nominee

Court challenges to travel ban

Refusal to cooperate with sanctuary city executive order

Attempts to oppose Trump's cabinet picks (Betsy Devos comes to mind)

Currently, there are threats to cause a government shutdown over budget disputes for funding toward the EPA.

This information is not only readily available online, but in print and in news media as well.

Well, I was creating what I thought was a well structured comeback, but as I was researching the Sanctuary City Executive Order, i got attacked by a virus on a conservative news website and lost everything

I am not spending another hour on an online debate so i'm gonna wing it now.

Gorsuch = originalism

originalism = backwards

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/03/06/trumps-new-travel-ban-still-wont-keep-out-anyone-from-countries-responsible-for-deadly-terror-attacks-in-the-u-s/?utm_term=.4fe38ef70047

Travel ban ^

Need to help immigrants, not restrict them.

Cabinet picks DEFINITELY NOT QUALIFIED FOR GOVERNMENT

If we don't fix the environment now, future generations gonna struggle.

I, personally, think it's a conspiracy! The Evil Conservatives knew I was on to something and shut me down

Well, if something happened to your computer don't worry about it. It's not like this is life or death. It is just a discussion, with multiple viewpoints, so there is no great need for you to come ready to be as sharp or prepared with fifty scholarly articles in your back pocket.

But what I'm seeing is a lot of opinion. Things like "originalism = backwards", "need to help immigrants not restrict them", and "Cabinet picks DEFINITELY NOT QUALIFIED FOR GOVERNMENT" are...a bit over the top. And that's where I find fault in what you are trying to convey, which I don't think is wrong, but I think you are more likely to agree with the obstruction because you hold those opinions.

Cold War Communist wrote:Well, if something happened to your computer don't worry about it. It's not like this is life or death. It is just a discussion, with multiple viewpoints, so there is no great need for you to come ready to be as sharp or prepared with fifty scholarly articles in your back pocket.

But what I'm seeing is a lot of opinion. Things like "originalism = backwards", "need to help immigrants not restrict them", and "Cabinet picks DEFINITELY NOT QUALIFIED FOR GOVERNMENT" are...a bit over the top. And that's where I find fault in what you are trying to convey, which I don't think is wrong, but I think you are more likely to agree with the obstruction because you hold those opinions.

I honestly DO NOT like obstructionism in the slightest bit. Do both parties do it? YES! Are the Democrats more justified in utilizing obstructionism during Trump's term than the Republicans were during Obama's term? Kinda. The way Republicans did it during Obama's term is absolutely inexcusable. Are the Democrats just going to sit down and let the Republicans run amok because they can break the system? NO! The Democrats are gonna break the system too so they don't get completely dominated by the Republicans.

It kind of reminds me of that old adage: "Treat others how YOU wish to be treated"

In a perfect world, we would have perfect bi-partisan cooperation between the political parties, and everything would run smoothly. This is not a perfect world.

Cold War Communist wrote:
"Cabinet picks DEFINITELY NOT QUALIFIED FOR GOVERNMENT" are...a bit over the top.

Not when RICK PERRY is our secretary of energy

Arden_Foxx wrote:I honestly DO NOT like obstructionism in the slightest bit. Do both parties do it? YES! Are the Democrats more justified in utilizing obstructionism during Trump's term than the Republicans were during Obama's term? Kinda. The way Republicans did it during Obama's term is absolutely inexcusable. Are the Democrats just going to sit down and let the Republicans run amok because they can break the system? NO! The Democrats are gonna break the system too so they don't get completely dominated by the Republicans.

There's a lot going on with what you're saying here. What I can boil it down to is that you don't like obstruction, but you're ok with it as long as you agree with the ideology and/or opposition doing the obstructing. It doesn't mean that the democrats using the exact same tactics as that republicans used during Obama's term are any more right to do so.

It kind of reminds me of that old adage: "Treat others how YOU wish to be treated"

Funnily enough, it reminds me of one as well: two wrongs don't make a right.

Cold War Communist wrote:He's tried to be, but there are some hypocritical obstructionists preventing him from getting anything done. The Democrats put up with Republican obstruction for eight years, only to turn around and do the exact same thing at the first opportunity.

Yes! How dare the Democrats obstruct a congress in which Republicans have the majority in both chambers! Democrats can't obstruct. The Republicans have merely failed so many times due to divisiveness within their own party.

McConnell even changed the rules saying nominations in the senate for a justice only required 50% instead of 66%, so there's literally no excuse for calling anything the Democrats do as obstructionism. Opposition is when they disagree and vote against. Obstruction would be if the Democrats controlled Congress and prevented any Republican legislation from passing. But they don't control Congress.

EmperorTigerstar wrote:

Cold War Communist wrote:He's tried to be, but there are some hypocritical obstructionists preventing him from getting anything done. The Democrats put up with Republican obstruction for eight years, only to turn around and do the exact same thing at the first opportunity.

Yes! How dare the Democrats obstruct a congress in which Republicans have the majority in both chambers!   Democrats can't obstruct. The Republicans have merely failed so many times due to divisiveness within their own party.

McConnell even changed the rules saying nominations in the senate for a justice only required 50% instead of 66%, so there's literally no excuse for calling anything the Democrats do as obstructionism. Opposition is when they disagree and vote against. Obstruction would be if the Democrats controlled Congress and prevented any Republican legislation from passing. But they don't control Congress.

That doesn't mean they can't obstruct. The GOP pulled that off during Obama's term. He started off with a Democrat Congress, but there are plenty of ways to block action. We're seeing plenty of them employed. But I am repeating myself, so I will leave it at this: changing the adjective or whether or not you support the action(s) of the opposition does not make them any less obstructionist in their methods or outcomes.

To be honest.. I'm kinda neutral.

I come from a Quaker blue collar democrat family in Chicago, so of course I would support Clinton right?
well, no. I don't like her because of the email thing and that's she's a third-wave feminist that only thinks you should vote for her because of her gender. She's clearly not strong because when ever she's on a debate and the moderator asks: "Why should people vote for you?" She basically replies with "Because I'm a woman."

Trump, on the other hand has sad some iffy things about illegal aliens and women so... yeah. But I like trump more than Clinton.

The democrats have proposed no ideas and they still vote against Republican ideas. That is obstructionists. Stop being partisan hacks.

Trump's had a pretty bad presidency so far, and I'm saying this as a registered Republican. His administration has no coherent strategy for domestic or foreign policy, and just about every problem he's had has been created or exacerbated by Trump himself.

Healthcare--Maybe if you want to hinge your entire first year on one bill, you should actually be involved in making it. Trump has done nothing on healthcare despite seeking a win. It's called Obamacare, not Pelosicare for a reason! Obama gave speeches, held townhalls, helped convince skeptical Dems, helped formulate policies, etc. Trump has done nothing but send out a few unhelpful tweets. Congress needs leadership and assistance from the President when drafting policies of this scope. Otherwise you get the clusterf*** that was the "skinny repeal."

Russia--Trump has singlehandedly intensified this scandal, from firing Comey, to mocking our intelligence agencies, to speculating about firing Meuller, to contradicting his own administration in his tweets. And maybe meeting with a hostile foreign power during an election is a bad idea?

Uncooperative GOP--He's a populist who made his own party hate him during the primaries. What did he expect? Not only that, but he's sabotaging the GOP for the 2018 midterms by tweeting about them, which is a brilliant strategy since the other party wants to impeach him...

NATO--Discrediting America's honor by refusing to support our own allies is probably never a good idea.

Putin--Obama's Russia reset went down in flames. Why did Trump think his version was going to work?

Protectionism--Hooray for bad economics!

The Kremlin The White House--Trump has successfully backstabbed every one of his prominent GOP supporters and also sent up a big neon sign saying "YOUR LOYALTY WILL NOT BE REWARDED; DON'T WORK FOR ME." These constant shakeups are embarrassing, and they won't fix the White House. Spicer wasn't the problem, Reince wasn't the problem, and the Mooch wasn't the problem either.

Climate deal--I actually don't care about that stupid non-binding Paris deal. Good riddance.

Refugee ban--Sending out inflammatory tweets while claiming your policy isn't inflammatory is stupid. The policy itself isn't bad, though. I would've just pointed out how it's not a 'Muslim' ban, since Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Brunei, Niger, Chad, Sierra Leone, Mali, Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Albania, the Philippines, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, and many others are all nations with significant Muslim populations which are unaffected.

Stupid crap--That immigration crowd thing was just embarrassing. There are so many other examples of this. Why doesn't Trump have a better way of dealing with things?

Low approval ratings--It seems that being a president who does nothing but pass executive orders, watch tv, and tweet stupidity doesn't help you in the ol' public eye.

Vacancies in the Executive Branch--These aren't nominees who have been obstructed. These are positions which don't have nominees, period.

Good Things Trump has Done

Gorsuch
Give medals to some veterans
Sign a decent VA bill to improve accountability
Uhhh

Honestly, I don't think anything too drastic has changed. Sure, there is drama in his cabinet and all that. But, there always is, we're just getting a more public and media-driven view of the presidency. As our media consumption and all that continues to balloon in future presidencies, we will start seeing more and more of what's actually going on, albeit with the filter that the media wants to put on it. Yes, he has proposed enacting some controversial policies. But, in my opinion, that shows he's trying to make change, which is more than we saw from Obama. Yes, the travel ban restricts some people, but it also makes others feel more safe and secure. You're never going to appeal to the whole world with a policy or law. Finally, I'd like to bring up the increased bombings and capture of Mosul in the Middle East. Now, obviously, no one really knows what's going on with that except the people giving orders. But, I don't really think it is a coincidence that this has all happened; in my opinion, Donald Trump has some part in this, even if it's just letting the Generals do what they couldn't under Obama. That's my opinion; I think there has been good and bad in Trump's presidency, but nothing too drastic.

-HistoricallyInsane

I am just chilling because people think presidents have this ultra high position. There are things called checks and balances. No one is more powerful than the other. The difference between President and Congress are that Congress make all of the major decisions like war and major changes in the country while the president gets to be called CIC has nuclear codes that you cant get to unless the democratic system allows you to and gets to say random stuff and people vote for who they want their figurehead to be. Our Poltical system is Slightly left and Slightly right, what a major difference

Also he is an idiot but people need to stop freaking out

Trump is the best president since Coolidge.

At this point I don't even care about Trump's political stance or his opinions. What I am disturbed by is that he's such an incompetent, childish, unintelligent excuse for a human being. He does not have the mental capacity to run the most powerful country in the world, yet this delicate little snowflake refuses to admit that he's capable of making a mistake.