Inevitable holocaust thread?

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Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Adolf Francolini on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:21 pm

It's a subject that rustles a lot of people's jimmies, but with a forum saying "controversial history" it's bound to happen eventually, so I'll kick it off. Hopefully on subjects like these we'll have constructive discussion on points where evidence shines through. A lot of points I've seen contested- number of people who died in camps, main purposes/angle behind the camps, gas chambers, etc. One question I would start off with is the staining resulting from Zyklon B, as it is observed in delousing chambers, but its apparent lack in what are believed to be historical gas chambers. Anyone have justification for such a discrepancy?
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by CptCrape on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:49 am

The only problem I have with the historicity of the holocaust (I don't deny it) is the number of countries where contesting it or even suggesting some evidence could be wrong could land you years in prison. Something just doesn't seem right when questioning a historical event can get you the same sentence as a felony or manslaughter.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by JunoSword on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:24 am

That's one of the main arguments of deniers. The "Why would denying the truth land you in prison? That sounds like they want to frighten people into believing". I have to admit, they have a point with that. I can see where they are coming from. I'm not denying it, I'm just saying that argument is valid.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by CptCrape on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:29 am

JunoSword wrote:That's one of the main arguments of deniers. The "Why would denying the truth land you in prison? That sounds like they want to frighten people into believing". I have to admit, they have a point with that. I can see where they are coming from. I'm not denying it, I'm just saying that argument is valid.
That's what i'm saying, I'm not denying it happened, but it seems odd to throw people in prison for it.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by EmperorTigerstar on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:17 am

JunoSword wrote:That's one of the main arguments of deniers. The "Why would denying the truth land you in prison? That sounds like they want to frighten people into believing". I have to admit, they have a point with that. I can see where they are coming from. I'm not denying it, I'm just saying that argument is valid.

Part of it is simply the emotional aspect. Humans act weird when it comes to very emotional things. We become extra defensive and lash out. It's like when a person has a really really rough day and no one believes him. If a guy goes "sounds like bullshit to me you liar", there are many people who in that position would yell back, maybe even punch them in the face. The Holocaust killed roughly 12 million people overall, so many at the time were obviously affected.

Another part is the belief that if you deny these events, the events are set in motion that might cause enough ignorance to where history is repeated and people "forget" about what happen until it's too late and there's another holocaust. Take the whole vaccination thing. Vaccines help prevent disease but because one person said they *think* they cause autism and he *thinks* kids shouldn't get vaccines because they do the opposite effect, now we have a whole bunch of conspiracy nuts following that trend, then suddenly previously extinct diseases like measles are now outbreaking again in the United States because of dumb ignorance running a muck.

Jailing these people is a bit harsh, yes. But ultimately human nature causes awkward situations like that.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Loopdelooper on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:58 am

I think the holocaust was not only a very bad but also a pretty dumb thing. Jewish people are mostly pretty hard and skilled workers. in the 17th century lots of Jewish people came to the Dutch Republic as refugees because there was freedom of religion in the Netherlands. (They were even allowed to built a synagogue) Their great working skill were one of the reasons the Dutch Republic had a golden age. Another thing I really want to say is that holocaust is sadly not the only extreme bad genocide that happened in the history. Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong both had a bigger genocides than Adolf Hitler. However this doesn't take it away that the holocaust is a bad thing but we also must remember that more bad genocides than only the holocaust happened.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Koopinator on Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:40 am

Why is the holocaust always "6 million jews" and never "11 million people"? Why do only jews matter?
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by EmperorTigerstar on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:12 am

Koopinator wrote:Why is the holocaust always "6 million jews" and never "11 million people"? Why do only jews matter?

Frankly I've heard both equally in my school. Perhaps it merely depends on where you live and where you learn about the Holocaust from.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by DuceMoosolini on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:19 pm

I have to admit, I was terrified at what I was going to see here, but I'm pleasantly surprised.

Also, I think Holocaust deniers are scum, but I don't believe in limiting their rights to share their beliefs, for all of the reasons listed above. Cracking down on speech is a dangerous ball to start rolling; you won't always be the one who decides what's offensive.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by AltHistNerd13 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:28 pm

I just got finished reading [i]Night[i] by Elie Wiesel. Just reading about the horrors of the Holocaust made me so depressed and disturbed, that I often couldn't even sleep after reading a chapter. Despite all of this, it annoys me when people use the Holocaust as an excuse for the Israeli crimes against Palestinians that take place in Gaza and the West Bank. I'm not saying that Israel is the only perpetrator of crimes in the region, but they have still done things that are inexcusable.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Malotun on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:17 am

6 million jews!


Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

Fell free to call me denier or something, I don't really care.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by ItsAGiraffe on Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:37 pm

Malotun wrote:
Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

I think the reason the number 6 million is repeated so often in reference to the Jewish victims is because there were so few Jewish people in the world to begin with.  In 1933, if you combine international census records, there were 9.5 million Jewish people in total.   The 6 million deaths accounted for 63% of the Jewish population.   Whereas with other groups, say the Slavic people that were also subject to Nazi war crimes, it was a smaller ratio.  If Slavs were 5 million of the total casualties, which is the usual estimate give or take, those numbers would be less than 14% of just the population of Poland, without accounting for the multiple other countries and regions that the Reich occupied in Eastern Europe.

I'm not trying to devalue any of the lives lost in the Holocaust, as it was a tragedy by every definition.  And yes, playing the numbers game may seem cold, or lawyer-y.  However, if "6 million" seems like a small amount to you, proportions should be considered.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by CptCrape on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:15 pm

ItsAGiraffe wrote:
Malotun wrote:
Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

I think the reason the number 6 million is repeated so often in reference to the Jewish victims is because there were so few Jewish people in the world to begin with.  In 1933, if you combine international census records, there were 9.5 million Jewish people in total.   The 6 million deaths accounted for 63% of the Jewish population.   Whereas with other groups, say the Slavic people that were also subject to Nazi war crimes, it was a smaller ratio.  If Slavs were 5 million of the total casualties, which is the usual estimate give or take, those numbers would be less than 14% of just the population of Poland, without accounting for the multiple other countries and regions that the Reich occupied in Eastern Europe.

I'm not trying to devalue any of the lives lost in the Holocaust, as it was a tragedy by every definition.  And yes, playing the numbers game may seem cold, or lawyer-y.  However, if "6 million" seems like a small amount to you, proportions should be considered.
*there were 9.5 Million Jews in Europe, 17 Million globally in 1939.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Cold War Communist on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:17 am

The Nazis tried to destroy as much evidence as possible while they were being defeated, so there's the lack of gas chambers for you. Additionally, gas chambers were something unique designed exclusively for killing. There were different types of camps (transit, forced work, extermination, and one other that escapes me) that served different purposes. Not all of these were equipped for the same function, so few camps would have had gas chambers. The ones that did have gas chambers would have been extermination camps, and they would have killed a disproportionate number of prisoners, so the reputation would precede them despite there being less overall. Does that make sense, OP?
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by DuceMoosolini on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:20 pm

(Since we're talking about Holocaust denial, I decided to post this excerpt from Eisenhower's book of wartime memoirs. What he says here is definitely one of the reasons he's one of my favorite presidents. I first saw this on RationalWiki's page on Holocaust denial, which everyone should take a look at, and it can also be found on Remember.org)

"I saw my first horror camp [on 12 April 1945]. It was near the town of Gotha. I have never been able to describe my emotional reactions when I first came face to face with indisputable evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of decency. Up to that time I had known about it only generally or through secondary sources. I am certain however, that I have never at any time experienced an equal sense of shock.

I visited every nook and cranny of the camp because I felt it my duty to be in a position from then on to testify at first hand about these things in case there ever grew up at home the belief or assumption that "the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda." Some members of the visiting party were unable to go through with the ordeal. I not only did so but as soon as I returned to Patton's headquarters that evening I sent communications to both Washington and London, urging the two governments to send instantly to Germany a random group of newspaper editors and representative groups from the national legislatures. I felt that the evidence should be immediately placed before the American and the British publics in a fashion that would leave no room for cynical doubt."
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Malotun on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:33 pm

CptCrape wrote:
ItsAGiraffe wrote:
Malotun wrote:
Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

I think the reason the number 6 million is repeated so often in reference to the Jewish victims is because there were so few Jewish people in the world to begin with.  In 1933, if you combine international census records, there were 9.5 million Jewish people in total.   The 6 million deaths accounted for 63% of the Jewish population.   Whereas with other groups, say the Slavic people that were also subject to Nazi war crimes, it was a smaller ratio.  If Slavs were 5 million of the total casualties, which is the usual estimate give or take, those numbers would be less than 14% of just the population of Poland, without accounting for the multiple other countries and regions that the Reich occupied in Eastern Europe.

I'm not trying to devalue any of the lives lost in the Holocaust, as it was a tragedy by every definition.  And yes, playing the numbers game may seem cold, or lawyer-y.  However, if "6 million" seems like a small amount to you, proportions should be considered.
*there were 9.5 Million Jews in Europe, 17 Million globally in 1939.

Yeah and after the war the number didn't decrease, indeed it increased by some thousands. The death of 6 million Jews didn't occur and it's not a low amount for me, it's huge but as I said, the amount of jews casualties were WAY less than that.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by EmperorTigerstar on Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:39 am

Malotun wrote:6 million jews!


Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

Fell free to call me denier or something, I don't really care.

Official recorded deaths of the Jews specifically in the Holocaust based on Nazi kept records that we found as well as citizens of conquered countries who were found dead by the end of the war and not registered in any country's army numbered 5.93 million, which rounds up to six million. So if you're gonna claim that this number is a lie, you better have a solid source. Hint: There aren't any.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by EmperorTigerstar on Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:40 am

Malotun wrote:Yeah and after the war the number didn't decrease, indeed it increased by some thousands. The death of 6 million Jews didn't occur and it's not a low amount for me, it's huge but as I said, the amount of jews casualties were WAY less than that.

Um, numbers increased years after the war due to natural population growth. But Jewish population definitively decreased between 1939 and 1945 due to the holocaust. Numbers after the war go up because the Holocaust ended.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by EmperorTigerstar on Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 am

For worldwide Jewish population statistics, in 1939 the population was at 16.728 million but by 1945 it was at roughly 11,000,000. Jewish population still hasn't recovered fully, as now it's in the 14 million range.

Sources: JewishVirtualLibrary and USHMM

Here's a good source for population by specific European country: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Adolf Francolini on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:54 am

EmperorTigerstar wrote:
Malotun wrote:6 million jews!


Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

Fell free to call me denier or something, I don't really care.

Official recorded deaths of the Jews specifically in the Holocaust based on Nazi kept records that we found as well as citizens of conquered countries who were found dead by the end of the war and not registered in any country's army numbered 5.93 million, which rounds up to six million. So if you're gonna claim that this number is a lie, you better have a solid source. Hint: There aren't any.

Do you have a photographic source on these records? The Red Cross recorded under 300,000 over the course of the war, though some people claim the Red Cross was 'tricked' or something like that.

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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by CptCrape on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:46 am

Adolf Francolini wrote:
EmperorTigerstar wrote:
Malotun wrote:6 million jews!


Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

Fell free to call me denier or something, I don't really care.

Official recorded deaths of the Jews specifically in the Holocaust based on Nazi kept records that we found as well as citizens of conquered countries who were found dead by the end of the war and not registered in any country's army numbered 5.93 million, which rounds up to six million. So if you're gonna claim that this number is a lie, you better have a solid source. Hint: There aren't any.

Do you have a photographic source on these records? The Red Cross recorded under 300,000 over the course of the war, though some people claim the Red Cross was 'tricked' or something like that.


Those are only registered deaths, not the total number.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Adolf Francolini on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:36 am

CptCrape wrote:
Adolf Francolini wrote:
EmperorTigerstar wrote:
Malotun wrote:6 million jews!


Sorry, I'm not saying that were no Jewish deaths during the war but is funny how they victimize themselves SO dramatically and everyone believes them, hahaha oh god!

There were a lot more deaths of non Jews an everyone lose their minds with that 6 million lie.

Fell free to call me denier or something, I don't really care.

Official recorded deaths of the Jews specifically in the Holocaust based on Nazi kept records that we found as well as citizens of conquered countries who were found dead by the end of the war and not registered in any country's army numbered 5.93 million, which rounds up to six million. So if you're gonna claim that this number is a lie, you better have a solid source. Hint: There aren't any.

Do you have a photographic source on these records? The Red Cross recorded under 300,000 over the course of the war, though some people claim the Red Cross was 'tricked' or something like that.


Those are only registered deaths, not the total number.

Why was the Red Cross inaccurate by such a magnitude? Did they ignore certain train cars, or just decide to close their eyes whenever there was going to be a gassing? They clearly had a presence in each of the major camps.

Regardless, if ETS has pictures of official German documents, then these third-party documents become less relevant. Hopefully he can clear up the confusion.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Adolf Francolini on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:42 am

EmperorTigerstar wrote:For worldwide Jewish population statistics, in 1939 the population was at 16.728 million but by 1945 it was at roughly 11,000,000. Jewish population still hasn't recovered fully, as now it's in the 14 million range.

Sources: JewishVirtualLibrary and USHMM

Here's a good source for population by specific European country: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

As the Jewish Virtual Library and Holocaust Memorial Museum are Jewish-dominated institutions, there is a considerable conflict of interest with the sourcing. Are you aware of any nonpartisan atlases, or similar documents, which detail the Jewish population within various nations, published throughout the 1930s onwards? Preferably including the United States, Palestine, etc. to help account for Jewish immigration and resettlement. This would help to confirm the claims of the JVL and HMM.
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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by Arandomperson3000and1 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:31 am

Adolf Francolini wrote:
EmperorTigerstar wrote:For worldwide Jewish population statistics, in 1939 the population was at 16.728 million but by 1945 it was at roughly 11,000,000. Jewish population still hasn't recovered fully, as now it's in the 14 million range.

Sources: JewishVirtualLibrary and USHMM

Here's a good source for population by specific European country: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

As the Jewish Virtual Library and Holocaust Memorial Museum are Jewish-dominated institutions, there is a considerable conflict of interest with the sourcing. Are you aware of any nonpartisan atlases, or similar documents, which detail the Jewish population within various nations, published throughout the 1930s onwards? Preferably including the United States, Palestine, etc. to help account for Jewish immigration and resettlement. This would help to confirm the claims of the JVL and HMM.
How is the Holocaust Memorial Museum a Jewish-dominated institution?

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Re: Inevitable holocaust thread?

Post by DuceMoosolini on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:21 pm

(About that "International Red Cross quotes 300,000 deaths" thing I keep seeing online... This is the text of a letter from the Head of Documentation and Dissemination for the Red Cross in 1979 specifically disowning the falsified numbers in those documents. Emphasis is mine and link is at the bottom):

COMITE INTERNATIONAL DE LA CROIX-ROUGE

Geneva, 10 May 1979
Fpe/grt

Dear Madam,

We have pleasure in acknowledging receipt of your letter of 12 April concerning the victims of the Second World War, together with the enclosed booklet. We did already have a copy of this document, which is not the only one of its kind. Indeed, the ICRC and several National Societies, in particular, the American Red Cross, have received a great deal of correspondence on this matter.

The booklet in question supports its false allegations by two abridged quotations taken from two documents published by the ICRC:

"Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its activities dueing the Second World War" (3 volumes)

"The work of the ICRC for civilian detainees in German Concentration Camps" (1 volume)

These two documents, which we are sending you under separate cover, contain the basic information which the ICRC possesses on the victims of the Second World War.

Unfortunately, we are not able to provide you with the figures you are seeking, since the ICRC has never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war and has never certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party. In fact, the basic aim of the ICRC is to come to the aid of victims of armed conflicts and not to act as a commission of enquiry or a statistics service.

With regard to the figure of 300,000 victims quoted on page 28 of the document you sent us, on 19 January 1955 the newspaper "Die Tat" published an article (of which a photocopy is enclosed) giving figures for the victims of the Second World War, including that of 300,000.

As you will see upon reading this article, first, the figure of 300,000 was not given by the ICRC and, secondly, it refers only to the _German_ victims (Jews and non-Jews) of the concentration camps. The authors of the booklet have therefore doubly falsified their information, by claiming that the figure relates to all the Jewish deportation victims and by naming the ICRC as its source.

Finally, for your information, we are sending a copy of the ICRC information bulletin "The ICRC in Action" of 12 December 1975, the last page of which mentions the work of the ICRC in concentration camps.

We hope this information will be of use to you.

Yours faithfully,
s/
R. Gaillard-Moret
Head of Documentation and Dissemination

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/international/red-cross/300000-victims-response.html

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/international/red-cross/300000-victims.response


Last edited by DuceMoosolini on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Fix link)
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