England vs France

Possibly the greatest nation to nation rivalry in history, the English and French have been sworn enemies nearly constantly beginning with the territorial disputes in the aftermath of the Battle of Hasting to the final climactic battle between these two nations at the battle of Waterloo. This thread is to discuss this rivalry and the significant wars and shared history between them. To start it off, with its overall history which nation has more to be proud of England (U.K. included) or France?

Oof I thought this would be straightforward, but looking at the history, both nations have done a ton and both have won major battles. France was much more dominant early on, but starting in the 19th century, the UK started to get ahead. However, I think that in general, I would say France has done more to be proud of, especially when you consider European affairs.

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France is responsible for the Paris Commune and the French Revolution which are fucking up our politics to this day. Anyone proud to be french is cancer.

So you aren't someone who's supports democracy?

Both those revolutions were undemocratic. I dare you to find a "Committee for Public Safety" that professionally kills citizens in any democracy.

And no, the Soviet Union was not a democracy.

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:Both those revolutions were undemocratic. I dare you to find a "Committee for Public Safety" that professionally kills citizens in any democracy.

And no, the Soviet Union was not a democracy.

It's true the the French Revolution quickly transitioned from a democracy into anarchy into a brutal dictatorship during the reign of terror and eventually went back to an empire under Napoleon. However, without the revolution occurring, it is doubtful the democracy would ever spread further outside of the United States, and even then the revolution did a lot to inspire Americans for additional reforms in their system to expand suffrage during elections. The French revolution inspired millions of people in Europe during the 1800s to spread liberalism (which is much closer to libertarianism than modern day liberalism) and lead to several major reforms and ensured democracies would become the dominant form of government in the 20th century. Without it, I think Europe and most of the world would still remain absolute monarchies outside of a few minor constitutional monarchies like Britain, which would continue an oligarchy of the aristocracy, similarly to how it was until the late 1800s in our timeline.

Just because the French Revolution was romanticized as democratic and inspired democratic reforms does not mean that it itself was democratic or even that i was a good thing for the people who lived through it.

Bit is that a reason to say that everyone who is proud to be French is cancer. Even napoleon brought something good to my country as he destroyed HRE and brought nationalism to Germany. Without napoleon Germany would have probably exist in 300 tiny states until today. Every bad has its good things.

I'm surprised how evenly this polled.

ceaserkhan22 wrote:I'm surprised how evenly this polled.

I don't find it that surprising, both had their ups and downs and there's so much history between each country so tons of arguments can be made for either side.

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:Just because the French Revolution was romanticized as democratic and inspired democratic reforms does not mean that it itself was democratic or even that i was a good thing for the people who lived through it.

The French Revolution itself was pure and for a good purpose. The ones who destroyed it were the Jacobins and Robespiere(I hope I pronounce that right) who took it to the extreme and slayed over 40.000 people. The Revolution itself brought democracy and freedom to the people of France and later whole Europe. With Napoleon's conquest the countries of Europe adopted the Napoleonc code which was the most democratic CONSTITUTION in Europe. Most countries didn't even have constitutions and were absolute monarchies. If you say that many people died in it then let me tell you this: People died for many stupid and selfish reasons and decisions of their monarchs. The happenings of the Revolution were(with a grain of salt) normal but the results were far more different for the better and the greater good.

Anyone else somewhat annoyed that Croatia denied us an England vs. France World Cup final? Oh well, soccer is a stupid past time anyway.