OTTOMAN EMPIRE GENERAL

I intent this thread to be a place were can share resources,ask and answer questions and connect with the experts on the subject of the ottoman empire. Of course while keeping the butthurt to an absolute minimum.


The Ottoman empire is defined as a former Turkish empire that was founded about 1300 by Osman and reached its greatest territorial extent under Suleiman in the 16th century; collapsed after World War one and had its Capital at Constantinople. Anything which some one doesn't relate to this definition is considered off topic unless it connects somehow, pour exemple, chatting about the British navy in 1808 is off topic unless it is bening compared to the ottoman navy or it's part of a narrative of events which affected the Ottomans in some way.

I always found it slightly sad to see the Ottoman empire, at one point so powerful it had nearly a quarter of Europe under its control and the first time a Muslim empire in nearly 700 years was over to conquer a European state, ended up essentially a pawn to the world powers as they argued about its fate. What do you think the Ottomans could have done to have prevented this from happening?

Mr Trolldemort wrote:  What do you think the Ottomans could have done to have prevented this from happening?

As i understand it the empire was doing pretty well in its last trashes, under sultan Abdulhamid the second the empire modernized and reformed the administration and army. Adulhamid took full advantage of his powers as the caliph of Islam threatening the brits, yanks and frogs will a universal jihad if they intervened to often in ottoman affairs, it worked and the empire was left in peace.

see the only possession of the British empire that actually made a profit was India it also happened to have the worlds largest Muslim population, at the time. France too had an empire in west Africa with a large Muslim population and as for the Americans they controlled the Philippines with its extremely warlike Muslim population, in short he had a stick to wack back, this made the Europeans cautious about upsetting him. he also made it his business to get the allegiance of every Muslim community in the world funding universities and militias in places as far away as china.

Abdulhamid embarked on a massive infrastructure and education programs and fostering a sense of patriotism among the population, there is a book about his regime called the well protected domains which goes into great detail about all this. I have the pdf but i dont think this site has a pdf upload capacity. anyway once Adulhamid was overthrown, critically, the new government declared it self to be secular. Everyone immediately pounced on the empire, resulting in the Balkan wars and the invasion of Libya,why becuase they lost the stick, the Germans warned the young Turks not to be overly secular but they were ignored. In another book i think Armageddon in Eden or something of that nature the author goes into detail about how terribly secularization wrecked moral in the army and brought to the forefront the ethic issue, among Turks,Arabs,turds and cirssians, that Islam had suppressed. there is a story in the book, from an interview with former soldiers, were the young Turk officer tries to inspire his men to attack a Russian machine gun position and at the end he yells out for the Turkish nation and runs towards the Russian guns. His troops just stay put and officer is gunned down. with the officer dead a random solider shouts out "damm the nation allhu ackbar, for islam" and all the soldiers rush out and carry the Russian potions. likewise while the Arabs would not revolt against the ottoman caliphate they had no trouble in revolting against the secular government.

The kurds who were the most loyal adherents to the ottoman royal family spent the war killing Armenians instead of joining the war at the front, after all why die for Turks. it was the same with the Armenians adulhamid had actaully manged to create a sense of loyalty among the Armenians to the state, as noted in Well Protected Domains. i do believe that Adulahamid not been not been couped and if they had stayed out of the great war they would have defiently survived.

Wow, thanks for that information. I did not realize the Ottomans had such an impact due to being the caliphs of Islam. I thought the Ottomans we're declining in power, hence their nickname as "The sick man of Europe" and Russia trying to take back Constantinople as they claimed to be the protectors of Orthodox Christians everywhere.

With your new knowledge I would theorize had the Young Turks not revolted, the Ottomans would just stick to ruling over modern day Turkey and most of the Middle East, except being a more modern nation, similar to Iran today. They would definitely not be the major power they were in the 16th century, though, but perhaps a major regional power nonetheless.

Mr Trolldemort wrote:Wow, thanks for that information.   

Your welcome bro, Knowledge exist to be shred just doing my part.

some ottoman music to get folks in the mood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owkKxqZH9bQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZhWs67Diuo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErVKHFG70Bs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJVb8gzMK6E

Also here is a subtitled tv series set during the last years of the empire its quite good if some what heavy handed.

Last post for tonight another Adulhamid thing as you can tell i am a bit of a fanboy

http://lostislamichistory.com/the-last-great-caliph-abdulhamid-ii/

excerpts from the articular

For centuries, the Ottoman sultans did not place much emphasis on their role as caliphs. It was an official title that was called in to use when needed, but was mostly neglected. During the decline of the empire in the 1800s, however, a sultan came to power that would decide to revive the importance and power of the caliphate. Abdülhamid II was determined to reverse the retreat of the Ottoman state, and decided that the best way to do it was through the revival of Islam throughout the Muslim world and pan-Islamic unity, centered on the idea of a strong caliphate. While Abdülhamid’s 33-year reign did not stop the inevitable fall of the empire, he managed to give the Ottomans a final period of relative strength in the face of European encroachment and colonialism, with Islam being the central focus of his empire.


Beginning with Mahmud II and throughout the reigns of Abdülmecid and Abdülaziz, attempts at reforming the empire were at the forefront of the government agenda. These Tanzimat (reorganization) reforms attempted to rebuild the Ottoman state along liberal, European lines. Islam (and religion in general) was given a back seat in public life, as secular ideas began to influence laws and government practices. These reforms proved to do nothing to reverse the decline of the empire

Abdülhamid decided to take a radically different approach. Because of the loss of European territory that had occurred just before and in the first few years of his reign, the empire was now overwhelmingly Muslim. Throughout Ottoman history, Christians had been a major part of the population, at some times being about 80% of the population. With about 3/4th of his empire Muslim, Abdülhamid decided to emphasize Islam as the dominant uniting factor among his subjects.The Ottoman empire had always been multi-cultural. Turks, Arabs, Albanians, Bosnians, Kurds, Armenians, and many others made up the empire. Abdülhamid attempted to make Pan-Islamism a uniting factor for Muslims, both inside and outside of the empire’s borders.

To show his role as supreme leader of Muslims worldwide, Abdülhamid placed much emphasis on the holy sites of Makkah and Madinah. In the 1800s, a building program commenced in the holy cities, with hospitals, barracks, and infrastructure being built in the Hejaz to aid in the yearly gathering of Muslims in Makkah

n 1900, Abdülhamid commenced the beginning of the Hejaz Railway. It began in Istanbul and traveled through Syria, Palestine, and the Arabian desert, ending in Madinah. The goal of the railway was to better connect the holy sites with the political authority of Istanbul, as well as make the pilgrimage easier. To show his emphasis on the protection of Makkah and Madinah, Abdülhamid decided that the gauge (width of the rails) of the Hejaz Railway should be slightly smaller than standard European ones. His reasoning for this was that if Istanbul were to ever fall to European imperialists, he wanted to make sure they could not use the Hejaz Railway with European trains to easily invade Makkah and Madinah.

Abdülhamid considered it his duty to protect the large populations of Muslims in Africa and Asia under European imperial control.Delegations were sent to African Muslim kingdoms such as Zanzibar, giving gifts from Abdülhamid and asking them to acknowledge the caliph as their protector against European imperialism. Similar delegations were sent to Muslims living within Russian and Chinese borders.Abdülhamid’s efforts resulted in the caliph of the Muslim world being acknowledged in Friday prayers from small towns throughout Africa to the major Muslim communities of India and China.

Abdülhamid II was the last of the Ottoman sultans who had any real power. He was overthrown in 1909 by a group known as the Young Turks. Abdülhamid II died in Istanbul in 1918, and was buried in a mausoleum along with Sultans Mahmud II and Abdülaziz near Sultanahmet Square.

from http://madmonarchs.guusbeltman.nl/madmonarchs/ibrahim1/ibrahim1_bio.htm

From his early youth, the Ottoman Sultan Ibrahim I "The Mad" (±1616-1648) had been locked up in the "Cage", a large building without windows. When he was finally proclaimed Sultan, he sought compensation for his lost years, indulging in debauchery with an endless supply of fresh virgins. One day, however, he had his entire harem of 280 women thrown into the Bosporus, tied up in weighted sacks. He became known as "The Crazy One".

Ibrahim was born on November 5 or 6 in 1615 or 1616, as a younger son of Sultan Ahmed I (1590-1617). As an infant he had been locked up in the "Cage", and ever since he had been living in fear of death. The Sultans Osman II (1604-1622) and Murad IV (1612-1640) had executed all their brothers - except Ibrahim. In 1640, Murad actually ordered Ibrahim's death on his deathbed, because he thought it better for the dynasty to end rather than continue with 'insane seed'. But their mother, Sultana Kösem, intervened. Nevertheless, when a crowd tried to enter the "Cage" to proclaim him Sultan, Ibrahim was so terrified that he barred the door. He was convinced that his cruel brother was playing a trick to torment him and refused to come out until his brother's corpse had been brought before him. Even then his mother had to "coax him out as if cajoling a frightened kitten with food". When he had finally left the "Cage", Ibrahim began dancing through the harem, while screaming: "The butcher of the Empire is dead!".

Seeking compensation for his lost years, 23-year-old Ibrahim indulged in an urge for debauchery. Sultana Kösem was happy to reign in her son's place, so she took care of an endless supply of virgins and fat women for his pleasure. Ibrahim was frequently impotent so his mother supplied him with aphrodisiacs, too. Ibrahim preferred women he could not have and found it difficult to make love to slave-girls, who were not in a position to refuse him anything. Dimitri Cantemir of Moldavia wrote: "In the palace gardens he frequently assembled all the virgins, made them strip themselves naked, and neighing like a stallion ran amongst them and as it were ravished one or the other, kicking or struggling by his order". When Ibrahim met the beautiful daughter of the Grand Mufti, Turkey's highest religious leader, he asked him for her hand in marriage. The Mufti, aware of the debaucheries in the harem, advised his daughter to refuse the proposal. Ibrahim was enraged and had the girl followed and kidnapped. He ravaged her for a couple of days and then sent her back to her father. Another time Ibrahim treatened to stuff his Grand Vezir with straw unless he recovered presents given by previous Sultans to the shrine at Medina.

Ibrahim the Mad In 1641, one of Ibrahim's concubines, Turhan Hadice (1627-1682), gave birth to his first son, Prince Mehmed (1642-1687). Shortly before the birth, Ibrahim (to the right) acquired a slave girl, who accidentally happened to be pregnant. After the birth she was employed as a wet nurse for the little Prince and so she moved into the Royal harem with her own son. The Sultan was so taken with the healthy and robust little boy - a contrast with his own fragile and sickly son - that he spent a lot of time with him. When Turhan Hadice complained, Ibrahim had one of his rages; he tore his son from his mother's arms and threw him into the pool. Luckily, Mehmed survived. Three months after Mehmed's birth another concubine gave birth to Ibrahim's second son, Süleyman (1642-1691). More sons soon followed. In 1645, Ibrahim betrothed his 3-year old daughter Fatima to Kapudan Yusuf Pasha*, but he had him executed within a year.

The shops of jewellers and European merchants were pillaged to satisfy Ibrahim's whims and tastes of the moment. Ibrahim used to drench his beard, clothes and room hangings with perfumes, especially the exotic ambergris. He had a fetish for furs: his clothes, curtains and walls were all decorated with fur. His pillows were stuffed with it and he had a preference for making love on sable skins. Ibrahim collected books expressing the various ways of coition and he was said to have invented some new and previously unknown positions himself. Once, Ibrahim happened to see the private parts of a wild young cow and according to Cantemir, "he sent the shape of them in gold all over the Empire with orders to make enquiries whether a woman made in just that manner could be found for his lust". A woman fitting the description was found in Armenia and she was received into the harem. Her name was Sechir Para ("Sugar Cube") and she weighed around 150 kilograms. Ibrahim became madly infatuated with her.

One day Sechir Para told Ibrahim about a rumour that one of his concubines was "compromised by an outsider", but she didn't know any details, like the girl's name. Ibrahim promptly raged for three days. When his son Mehmed made a joke that Ibrahim didn't like, he took his dagger and thrust it in his little son's face. Mehmed was to carry the resulting scar on his forehead until the end of his life. The chief black eunuch, the most powerful man after the Grand Vezir, tried to find the identity of the concubine by torturing some of the harem girls, but he was not provided with a name. Then Ibrahim decided to have his entire harem of 280 women thrown into the Bosporus, tied up in weighted sacks. Sechir Para and Turhan Hadice were spared. Only one other girl survived, because her sack had not been sufficiently tied up. She was dragged out of the water by the crew of a French ship. Eventually Sultana Kösem became jealous of Sechir Para's influence and one day she invited the woman to dinner and had her strangled. She told the inconsolable Ibrahim that the woman "had died suddenly of a powerful illness".

In the provinces the custodians of public property turned into feudal lords. Offices were sold to the highest bidder or given to favourites, taxes were increased and every resource possible was drained to supply the demands of the Sultan's excesses. Ibrahim was indifferent to the chaotic situation in his country and his insane behaviour alienated all political fractions. But the birth of his sons had made Ibrahim replaceable. In 1648, the Janissaries revolted because they were paid poorly or not at all. They cut up the body of the Grand Vezir and sold it in the street. Then the Grand Mufti decided to take revenge for the deflowering of his daughter by sanctioning a coup. When Ibrahim asked him: "Did I not appoint you to this high office?", he replied: "No, God appointed me." Thus Ibrahim was deposed and put back in the "Cage". Confined once again, he became a raving lunatic. Despite the thick walls, his cries could be heard day and night. A week after losing his throne, on August 18, the executioners entered the "Cage". With the Koran in his hand, Ibrahim cried out: "Behold! God's book! By what writ shall you murder me?" and "Is there no one among those who have eaten my bread who will take pity on me and protect me? These cruel men have come to kill me. Mercy! Mercy!" Nevertheless, he was strangled with a bowstring and buried in the Haghia Sophia Mosque beside Mad Mustafa.Abdülkadir Dedeoglu claims that Ibrahim was by no means out of his mind and that the rumours about his insanity were spread by his assassins in an attempt to justify their deeds. Still, Ibrahim was an eccentric and his liability to sudden bouts of intense violence and his boundless indulgence in debauchery indicate that he suffered from some kind of personality disorder. He spent his childhood and adolescent life in solitary confinement in the Cage, while his brothers Osman II, Mehmed, Süleyman and Bayezid met violent deaths. Growing up in fear of death will surely have marked his personality. In addition, Ibrahim suffered from chronic headaches all his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_laWSY427E

VALSE DAVET written by the ottoman emperor ABDÜLAZİZ

Well, time to revive a cool thread. Do you think the Ottomans had any real chance in taking over Vienna in 1683. If so, how would it change Europe had they won?

I want to help the history of Ottomans on this thread, so i will give a few paragraphes from the biggest historian of Turkey, Halil Inancik.

"Sultan II.Mehmed The Conqueror, claimed himself as Kayser-i-Rum (Emperor of Rome) and he tried to conquer Rome at some point, his commander Gedik Ahmet Pasha managed to get the castle in Otranto (South-East of Italy, on the west of Albania) under the Ottoman control, but with the death of II.Mehmed, he needed to retreat,  he left the 500 man in the castle, those men later on served to the king of Naples and Naples had a superiority over their foes with the troops Ottomans had before."

and also some more info about Mehmed II (this paragraph is said by Celal Sengor)

"Mehmed II was poisoned by either the Venetians, the Pope or the son of Mehmet II, Bayezid II.
I think it was Bayezid II who did it, since Mehmed II choose Cem as his heir instead of Bayezid, the bigger brother."

I will definitely post more about Ottomans trying to apply their claim on being the next Roman Empire.

And also, some Ottoman music for ya :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPTg_H_rP5E

Mr Trolldemort wrote:Well, time to revive a cool thread.  Do you think the Ottomans had any real chance in taking over Vienna in 1683.  If so, how would it change Europe had they won?

I'd say they would actually apply their claim on being the next Roman Empire, thus getting Rome and Italy, if they pushed harder they would probably get Germany also since Suleiman the Magnificent did do a battle for Germany and Rome (his father and grandfathers also tried to get Rome) after failing in Vienna.

It would be very interesting to see the Ottomans control Rome and claiming the title of the Roman Empire despite being Islamic (Technically possible but would create a shock wave in Europe and especially Russia aka Third Rome). I'm guessing a major coalition of Christian kingdoms (Catholic Orthodox and maybe even protestant) will form to take Rome back

Mr Trolldemort wrote:It would be very interesting to see the Ottomans control Rome and claiming the title of the Roman Empire despite being Islamic (Technically possible but would create a shock wave in Europe and especially Russia aka Third Rome).  I'm guessing a major coalition of Christian kingdoms (Catholic Orthodox and maybe even protestant) will form to take Rome back

The thing is, the Protestant Princes of Saxony and others actually waited Ottomans to Attack Germany, so they could attack Austria at their weak moment. Martin Luther actually accepted Ottoman rule at first, later on changed his mind i guess.

Let me call a good friend of mine...



I do not like them, they did genocides pretty much anywhere they went and constantly kept things like slavery when the world was advancing. Yes they did have some years were they ruled and were pretty powerful, but they just held on to past glories and never tried to improve, this lead to the fall of this empire and the rise of the turkish republic.