Greatest German Ruler

Beginning with the foundations that the Frankish Empire laid for the first German nation state, to the Holy Roman Empire, to the Prussian and German empires, and finally with the third Reich, which German ruler was the greatest of them all?

Bismarck!

But since he's not an option, Frederick the Great

Surprised Bismark isn't here, but I think Charlemagne gets my vote by uniting France, Germany and most of Italy under his rule and beginning a Carolingian Renaissance.

Frederick!

Crazy Boris wrote:Bismarck!

But since he's not an option, Frederick the Great

Bismarck was never a german ruler. He was chancellor to german rulers (Wilhelm I & II, Friedrich III)

I know Hitler is strongly disfavored but the fact that he had such a high approval rating amongst the German people and did so well to sweep up Europe in the first part of the war, putting his people first, for his people, makes him imo the greatest german leader.

Frederick the Great, hands down. This is the man who turned Prussia into a serious central European power, making it possible for German unification a little over a century later. Later, during the Seven Years' War, he fought off the combined forces of Russia, Austria, and France. Sure, much of his success is more attributable to the excellent training of Prussian soldiers and the disorganization of his enemies than it is to Frederick's skills as a general. But his military achievements aren't anything to sneeze at.

He is also one of the more famous Enlightenment monarchs, demonstrating a love of philosophy and an almost dangerous disdain for organized religion. He was very skilled at adopting liberal and meritocratic reforms while also maintaining his absolutist power. He had a decently shrewd mind for economics, as shown by his efforts to build a porcelain industry.

On a side note, I read Tim Blanning's book about him, which was quite good. But part of it interestingly presented quite a bit of evidence that Frederick may have been a homosexual. I might end up starting a historical debate thread on that one.

(PS: where tf is Bismarck? He's my #2)

mayexplains wrote:I know Hitler is strongly disfavored but the fact that he had such a high approval rating amongst the German people and did so well to sweep up Europe in the first part of the war, putting his people first, for his people, makes him imo the greatest german leader.

I've said this elsewhere, but I think if Hitler left office before 1939, he'd actually be remembered positively.

@DuceMoosolini
@Mr Trolldemort
@Crazy Boris
@Eveyone else asking where Bismarck is

Otto von Bismarck was not a german ruler, he was the chancellor to german emperors who were german rulers.

ceaserkhan22 wrote:@DuceMoosolini
@Mr Trolldemort
@Crazy Boris
@Eveyone else asking where Bismarck is

Otto von Bismarck was not a german ruler, he was the chancellor to german emperors who were german rulers.

True, technically he was under the Monarchs control, but he arguably had much more influence on German politics and policy than Wilhelm I ever had to the point that the monarch was nearly a figurehead during his tenure. It's like saying none of the prime ministers of the UK ever ruled because of the King or Queen of England.

ceaserkhan22 wrote:@DuceMoosolini
@Mr Trolldemort
@Crazy Boris
@Eveyone else asking where Bismarck is

Otto von Bismarck was not a german ruler, he was the chancellor to german emperors who were german rulers.

I still think he should count. Bismarck had a huge amount of influence on German politics, even if he was just a chancellor. He successfully instituted male suffrage and put together one of the world's first welfare systems. Those were his ideas. Also, most of Germany's foreign policy was dictated by him, which is why he gets primary credit for German reunification and the victories against France and Austria.

Mr Trolldemort wrote:

ceaserkhan22 wrote:@DuceMoosolini
@Mr Trolldemort
@Crazy Boris
@Eveyone else asking where Bismarck is

Otto von Bismarck was not a german ruler, he was the chancellor to german emperors who were german rulers.

True, technically he was under the Monarchs control, but he arguably had much more influence on German politics and policy than Wilhelm I ever had to the point that the monarch was nearly a figurehead during his tenure.  It's like saying none of the prime ministers of the UK ever ruled because of the King or Queen of England.

Yes, but the German Kaiser had far more power then today's British Monarchs. In fact, in the end, Bismarck resigned at the insistence of Kaiser Wilhelm II. In most parliamentary state systems such as the U.K., the head of government depends on parliamentary majority and can form coalitions to ensure their policies get enacted, while in 19th century Germany, the Chancellor depended on the confidence of the Emperor alone to enact policy.

DuceMoosolini wrote:

ceaserkhan22 wrote:@DuceMoosolini
@Mr Trolldemort
@Crazy Boris
@Eveyone else asking where Bismarck is

Otto von Bismarck was not a german ruler, he was the chancellor to german emperors who were german rulers.

I still think he should count. Bismarck had a huge amount of influence on German politics, even if he was just a chancellor. He successfully instituted male suffrage and put together one of the world's first welfare systems. Those were his ideas. Also, most of Germany's foreign policy was dictated by him, which is why he gets primary credit for German reunification and the victories against France and Austria.

I don't disagree that Bismarck was a geopolitical genius, and probably more then anyone else should get credit for German unification. And yes he was more instrumental then his Kaisers for the most part, but i stand by the fact that since he did not ultimately have the highest authority as he was subordinate to the Emperor, he cannot be considered a german ruler. A brilliant geopolitical engineer? Yes, a ruler? No.

DuceMoosolini wrote:

mayexplains wrote:I know Hitler is strongly disfavored but the fact that he had such a high approval rating amongst the German people and did so well to sweep up Europe in the first part of the war, putting his people first, for his people, makes him imo the greatest german leader.

I've said this elsewhere, but I think if Hitler left office before 1939, he'd actually be remembered positively.  

Agreed

Wilhelm I. (together with Otto von Bismarck) united Germany within 10 years of his reign. From 1861 to 1871 he won a war against the Danes, the Austrians and their allies ( which held more then half of german territory today), and the Second French Empire under Napoleon III.
Without him, Germany could've been a geographical mess until this day.

Arminius

Koopinator wrote:Arminius

If you could put more then 10 options on the list i probably would've listed Arminius. There were many great leaders of germanic tribes pre fall of rome (Alaric, Gaiseric, Ballomar, Arminius, etc...), but i think they should go on a "pre-clovis" list. I started with Clovis since he really began the concept of a united germanic nation state, as opposed to a confederation of independant germanic tribes, and starting with Clovis the lineage of the identity of what we now know as Germany had its geopolitical beginning.