Why do Liberals Support Islam?

It seems that many Feminists and Liberals (Not lumping them into one,) tend to state that they support Islam even though the religion explicitly states (And many members do practice this,) that you must kill Homosexuals and Apostates. I am looking for an answer from a Liberal or a Feminist (Not lumping them together in case you missed the first part) why you protect Islam from criticism. This is coming from a left leaning centrist. I hope this will be an interesting discussion, toodle loo.

I am a left-leaning centrist. I do not "support" Islam. I understand that the religion directly supports some beliefs that contradict the ideals of the West. However, I am confident that with time Islam can be reformed. It won't be easy, especially with Turkey becoming a dictatorship and the worlds biggest Theocracy becoming a growing power, but I think with enough influence with the west we can work to
a) Stabilize and eventually Secularize the governments of the Middle East
b) Destroy Islamism, Wahhabism, Jihadism
c) Accept Apostates. This one is especially important because with enough Athiests in Middle-Eastern communities, the more devout Muslims will be forced to accept the reforms.
Obviously this won't come easy, and it means NATO needs some allies in the Middle East other than the Socially Conservative Saudis and the now dictatorial Turkey. But its a better option than a crusade...

Maajid Nawaz said in his book Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue "(That) No idea is above scrutiny, no people below dignity," I believe that is a great quote to summarize how I feel about Islam. I think the idea of it is awful and bigoted but I have no problem with the people at all. Islamism is a terrible form of government and allows for tortuous humiliating and public murders but I have no problem with the people as long as they are not participating in those murders or if they are forced to do it. I do think that many people hold criticizing Islam as the worst offense anyone could do

I don't consider myself a liberal, but from my understandings, one reason it has become more common for them to defend Islam is due to the polarization of political issues and conservatives tending to oppose other religions, especially Islam. It is also why many liberals are against Christianity while conservatives believe we need to have more support for it. I personally think all religions are terrible and should not have any influence in public life. Of course some things in Islam are pretty bad, but so to does nearly any other religion, and there will always be a violent organization that will try to spread their interpretations, and no religion is free from that. The problem is that defending someone from persecution because of their religious beliefs is not the same as stopping others from criticizing ideas. I'm not gonna hate someone for being Muslim or Christian or any other religion, but I will still say that both religions have problems and people should be able to speak out.

Islam cannot be reformed unless such a reformation starts from by being critical of the Quran rather than seeing the Quran as an authority.

People compare a moderate Islamic reformation to the protestant reformation but this is inaccurate. This guy explains it brilliantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8qczuUrglM&feature=youtu.be&t=29m48s

DavidlVofGeorgia wrote:Islam cannot be reformed unless such a reformation starts from by being critical of the Quran rather than seeing the Quran as an authority.

That seems to be the problem with Islam, it can not be reformed because if you disobey the Quran you are an apostate and must be killed by true Muslims. A reformed Muslim dis obeys the Quran when they do not kill Apostates meaning they are not Muslims. "Moderate Islam" can only be achieved if you are simply calling yourself Muslim without following the most important rule, obey the Quran.

This one is easy. More liberal candidates and parties are supported by minority groups. Muslims outside of Middle Asia tend to be a minority group. Given a "perfect storm" of sorts, the last century has seen a large amount of migration from Muslim countries and a large amount of backlash against Muslims. That makes them a prime group for liberal-minded individuals to support.

Cold War Communist wrote:This one is easy. More liberal candidates and parties are supported by minority groups. Muslims outside of Middle Asia tend to be a minority group. Given a "perfect storm" of sorts, the last century has seen a large amount of migration from Muslim countries and a large amount of backlash against Muslims. That makes them a prime group for liberal-minded individuals to support.

So it is basically just trying to get the most votes possible even if they conflict with your ideology, sounds like when the Tories made a coalition with the DUP. Politics are pretty fun

Yes, it is exactly like the Tories and the DUP, only in this case it's aligning with a marginalized group and forming a patchwork network of supposedly marginalized people to make a base. There is only one party at work and it doesn't need a coalition to gain more power in this case.

People often talk about how islam needs to go through a "reformation." Be careful of this because the reformation in Christianity was all about going back to taking the Bible and only the Bible as the sole authority of the church. If Muslim's go back to making the Quran the the sole authority of Islam then you will see a lot more extremism as the Quran is a very extreme book.

The real question is, Why people support religion?

I already guess why, but it is interesting how in this century the people still believe in myths.

I will preface my argument with that I am an atheist, but I will respect anyone's (including Muslim's) religious beliefs, provided that they don't force them unto me.

eggcrate09 wrote:they support Islam even though the religion explicitly states (And many members do practice this,) that you must kill Homosexuals and Apostates.

Yes, the Quran, does say to do that, but a very loud minority of radical Islamists (Yes, i'm not afraid to say it) practice it. Your Friendly Neighborhood Muslim™ most likely does not practice this, nor believes it should be practiced.

All of this reminds me of another Holy Book that says to do the same exact thing. Does the Bible ring a bell? If the Bible were supreme law, Homosexuals and Apostates would be put to death. But, thankfully, that isn't happening. Your Friendly Neighborhood Christian™ most likely does not practice this, nor believes it should be practiced. Since the U.S. passed full gay marriage rights just over 2 years ago, and many Christians would still have you believe its a sign for the end times, its easy to see that Christian nations aren't too far ahead of Islamic ones based off human rights.

eggcrate09 wrote:why you protect Islam from criticism

Surprise: I don't. Nor do I protect Christianity from criticism. What I do protect, however, are the people. Religious people are no less of a person than me because they are religious, and I am no more of a person because I am atheistic. If a Muslim wants to live in the United States, let them (again provided that they don't force their belief on others), likewise with any other person with any other religion.

Interestingly enough, I can pose a similar question to yours:
Why do conservatives protect Christianity?

I am an Athiest as well and as I said I have nothing against the people just the idea but you can't say it is a loud minority of people killing gays and apostates, we are not talking about terrorism where I agree that that is a small minority of Muslims. Sharia is practiced in full in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Sudan, and Mauritania. That is not a minority of Muslims killing homosexuals and apostates. I don't protect a Muslim that just threw a homosexual from a roof because some book told him too. I do protect a Muslim that lives a normal life with his family. In regards to your question about Conservatives protecting Christianity. Probably because they are Christian. That question also doesn't have anything to do with this thread because Liberalism and Islam are too highly different ideologies whilst Conservatism and Christianity are intertwined. Also (I am an Athiest just to say again) I believe that Christianity has evolved far enough to where we are not killing Apostates because you and I would be dead if that were the case sure there are some people killing gays somewhere in the forests of Alabama but you don't see public legalized murders anywhere in the West. The idea of Christianity is terrible, just like the idea of Islam. I hate the Ideas but I protect the people as long as they don't do anything wrong.

I think the issue is that countries in the West are all now secularized politically, meaning the church and the state are not connected (although I see it become more intertwined in the US in recent years). By comparison, there are a few countries who proclaim themselves to be Islamic republics such as Iraq and Pakistan and Iran itself is a theocracy in the same line as the Vatican City.

I don't believe Christianity "evolved" to not sanction the killing of gay people because people forget it has only been a few decades that it was even acceptable to present yourself as a homosexual and was even considered to be a form of mental illness in official psychology books. Another thing is that the state government does not always have the same values as its people. You can't say all Russians were communists during the cold war or all Germans were Nazis during WW2. Many people just stay compliant to avoid getting killed. To think all Muslims in these countries support their governments' stance on Sharia Law is also an absurd claim.

However, I do agree that the first step is to replace these republics to more secularized versions, as the first step to reduce radical interpretations of a religion is to not have the government's approval of it.

eggcrate09 wrote: The idea of Christianity is terrible, just like the idea of Islam. I hate the Ideas but I protect the people as long as they don't do anything wrong.

I was not attacking Muslims not following Sharia law. I blatantly state here that I protect the people as long as they do not do anything wrong. If someone supports Sharia they are supporting the murdering of innocent people. Also I did not say that Homosexuality was accepted in Western culture, in fact it was only allowed in the last century. In reply to where you sayed that it is an absurd claim to state that every Muslim in the Shari following countries support that and compare it to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union is that these 2 revolutions in Germany and Russia were abrupt and violent and not popular (In the Soviet Union,) Those were abrupt and not always popular and based off of force over a small amount of time. Sharia is deep rooted in the start of Islam in the 800's. That is over 1200 years of Sharia law where there are still many countries following this. Iran is probably the best example of this, Iran has been around in many forms from the Roman era over thousands of years they had changed to many different ideologies and factions, Persia has been the caliphate of both Shia and Sunni throughout its time and it still holds the same laws up until now for over 1000 years. This has been deep rooted in their culture and a minority dislike Sharia in Iran and many other Islamist countries. I am sorry but a religion that white knights for Sharia that promotes wife beating, public muders, genital mutilation, punishing women for BEING raped. (Again I am a left leaning centrist) is an exact opposite of Liberal ideology, Liberals despise wife beating, hate government executions, and in fact want to punish men for raping women seems to be just looking for a minority to support to make their image look better and get a slightly higher percent of popular vote in any election they might face. Thanks to everyone so far participating in the debate

Islamic governments tried to be secular, but Ba'athism didn't sit well with some people...

I think we need to right the ship and get back to the original topic of discussion which is why more left-leaning ideologies support a strongly conservative minority group. Again, I have to say that the idea of a minority is so important to the identity of leftist groups that they will overlook perhaps the most extreme conservatism to gain support from that base.

It's all about power.

Saddam was actively instituting sharia law to maintain his power in the twilight years of his regime.

Cold War Communist wrote: Again, I have to say that the idea of a minority is so important to the identity of leftist groups that they will overlook perhaps the most extreme conservatism to gain support from that base.

Because ALL Muslims are extremely conservative wife-beating jihadists. Tell that to the hordes of refugees fleeing the Middle East.

Cold War Communist wrote:It's all about power.

Or maybe they're just trying to do the right thing? Does everything liberals do have malicious intent behind it?

Ah yes the same system that set up sharia communities in Britain, Germany, France, the Netherlands, the entirety of eastern Europe and Canada. No one on this thread has said anything against the people so dont you dare bring that into this thread to try to get yourself on the moral high ground this is purely a discussion about a left wing ideology supporting an ultra conserve homophobic and xenophobic groups in the world. I used to be a Liberal until I started to realize it was all some big circle jerk of pandering to the smallest minority or 'oppressed' people. I am a Latino and I hate how Liberals and the far left treat us like we are 2 year old kids with Autism (got off topic.) Liberals dont have malicious intent, no political party does in there own eyes and I think being an actual liberal instead of a glorified communist is good. The right thing to do would be to say "oh hey, we'll let you in if you don't bring a sharia law in your neighborhoods" domestic abuse is against the law and do you thing that these sharia communities are not beating their wives? There are news stories about gangs of teenage Muslims attacking white people because they are not Muslim (I was trying to look for the exact story for 30 minutes and couldn't.)

eggcrate09 wrote:Ah yes the same system that set up sharia communities in Britain, Germany, France, the Netherlands, the entirety of eastern Europe and Canada.

What?! I've done research and as far as I can tell, purely Sharia communities do not exist in any of these countries. The State law still rules supreme, and anyone who commits a crime is held accountable by State law, not Sharia law.

eggcrate09 wrote:No one on this thread has said anything against the people so dont you dare bring that into this thread to try to get yourself on the moral high ground this is purely a discussion about a left wing ideology supporting an ultra conserve homophobic and xenophobic groups in the world.

I wasn't attempting to gain the moral high ground, I was trying to point out that it seemed like you all weren't acknowledging that many Muslims are not in support of their extremely conservative governments.

Let me elaborate what i'm supporting and not supporting.

SUPPORT
-Accepting Islamic refugees and immigrants
-Equality for Muslims

DO NOT SUPPORT
-Sharia Law
-Religious extremism
-Muslim travel ban

eggcrate09 wrote:There are news stories about gangs of teenage Muslims attacking white people because they are not Muslim (I was trying to look for the exact story for 30 minutes and couldn't.)

Then maybe it doesn't exist? In fact, I googled "Muslim teens attack people," and instead got a bunch of articles about Muslim teens getting attacked by white people.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/muslim-gang-rampaged-through-liverpool-13392480

Found it.

Also I don't think Sharia Law was a good word for it, Sharia Principles should be a better word for it as there are no actual Sharia courts there, bad wording on my part. Also I am sure that there are white people attacking Muslim Teens as well.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201601141033140965-germany-migrants-crimes/

Rise of crime in Germany allegedly by Arab/North African men. (Can't find any recent reports from Sweden since 2015 which isnt relevant anymore)

Arden_Foxx wrote:

Cold War Communist wrote: Again, I have to say that the idea of a minority is so important to the identity of leftist groups that they will overlook perhaps the most extreme conservatism to gain support from that base.

Because ALL Muslims are extremely conservative wife-beating jihadists. Tell that to the hordes of refugees fleeing the Middle East.

Huh?

Or maybe they're Trump is just trying to do the right thing? Does everything liberals Trump do(es) have malicious intent behind it?

Arden_Foxx wrote:
I was trying to point out that it seemed like you all weren't acknowledging that many Muslims are not in support of their extremely conservative governments.

The core principles of Islam is to follow the Quran, the Quran calls for Sharia law. Don't follow Sharia law then and are against it? Are you disregarding the holy Quran? What are you a dirty heathen apostate that must be burned?

If two guys in the KKK said that they were against Racism does that mean that the KKK is a progressive movement?

Cold War Communist wrote:Huh?

SEE NEXT POST BELOW

Cold War Communist wrote:

Or maybe they're Trump is just trying to do the right thing? Does everything liberals Trump do(es) have malicious intent behind it?

I did not say this because I think conservatives are evil/corrupt, or that liberals are less evil/corrupt than conservatives. I said this because recently, it seems that each side always assumes the worst of the other.

Without trying to get into a Left vs. Right banter war on this thread, I will say this: I do not think Trump is evil, corrupt, or has plans to create a new world order. I do think that so far he has performed poorly as our president, and has failed to make America and the world as a whole a better place to live in. He has made some very poor decisions, but if any of them are inherently evil and/or corrupt remains to be completely seen.

Liberals, too, have made many poor decisions, some of which have turned out to be inherently evil and/or corrupt (Take Bill Clinton lying about the Monica Lewinsky Scandal).

Hopefully, neither side is inherently evil and/or corrupt, as we are supposed to be two halves of a whole.

(P.S. I'm pretty sure editing a comment in that way is against the rules of the forum. I don't care, but I'm not a moderator)

eggcrate09 wrote:
The core principles of Islam is to follow the Quran, the Quran calls for Sharia law. Don't follow Sharia law then and are against it? Are you disregarding the holy Quran? What are you a dirty heathen apostate that must be burned?

Plenty of Muslims don't follow Sharia law. Take Malala Yousafzai for example. She won a Nobel Peace Prize.

eggcrate09 wrote:If two guys in the KKK said that they were against Racism does that mean that the KKK is a progressive movement?

How influential are these two men? Are they leaders or acolytes? If they are leaders, then they are the foremost voices you hear of the KKK, and at a first glance the KKK may seem to be a progressive movement, but if you take a closer look, nothing has changed. The KKK would still be a radical organization at heart, because of its member base. They would need to reform their organization for change to happen. If they were acolytes, they would be spurned by their peers. Liberal Islam is the latter of these two examples. Except instead of just two men, there are millions of men, women, and children who do not follow every single line written in the Quran. They risk ostracization by their peers and death in some places.

Lets explore another scenario; it's just like the first one, but inverted. Say the KKK is a worldwide organization with billions of followers. There are a handful of ultra-conservative religious zealots in charge, but the majority of its members are far more liberal than its leaders. You don't know much about the Klan other than that the militant ones have been on the news a lot recently. At first, you think its safe to assume they're all that way since that's all you hear about. But then you take a closer look...